2000 Years of Cowardice with Dr. Greg Amunsdon

Pilate has authority, facts, and options, yet he still folds when the crowd gets loud, showing that leadership failure is often a failure of courage. Travis Yates and Dr. Greg Amundson connect that pattern to modern law enforcement leadership, resilience, faith, and the daily choice to lead by example.

• Pontius Pilate as a leadership warning under pressure 
• cowardice reframed as “strategy” through compromise and stalling 
• courageous leadership as doing right despite cost 
• seasons of identity in law enforcement and walking through new doors 
• prayer and Scripture as the starting point for purpose and mission 
• self-help culture as distraction without fulfillment 
• trust and surrender when control feels safer 
• modeling the way through fitness and disciplined living 
• resilience as an internal capacity, not just a program 
• peer support and chaplaincy research, plus the value of real relationships 
• Joshua 1:9 courage anchored in God’s presence 

We invite you to join other courageous leaders at TravisYates.org. 

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Transcript

Pilate And The Failure Of Courage

Travis Yates 0:00

Pontius Pilate knew the truth. He said it out loud three times. Standing before a hostile crowd with the power of Rome behind him, the governor of Judea looked at Jesus of Nazareth and declared him innocent. Not once as a passing remark, but three separate times as a matter of official record. In Luke 23, 4 he told the chief priests and the crowd, I find no guilt in this man. When that did not satisfy them, he sent Jesus to Herod to get a second opinion and came back with the same verdict in verse 14. I did not find this man guilty of any of your charges against him, neither did Herod. When the crowd still would not relent, Pilate tried a third time in verse 22. I have found in him no guilt, deserning deserving death, I will therefore punish and release him. Three decorations, three opportunities to hold the line, and then after all of it, he folded anyway. Luke's phrase is the most damning description of failed leadership in all of Scripture. Their voices prevailed. Pilate did not run out of authority, he did not run out of facts, he did not run out of options, he ran out of his will, his will to do what is right. And when his will ran out, he freed a murderer and condemned an innocent man because the crowd demanded it. That's not a political miscalculation. This is cowardice. We saw it 2,000 years ago, and we continue to see it today. What Pilate did that morning was not a failure of information, it was not a failure of authority, it was a failure of courage. And 2,000 years later, the same failure is playing out in organizations, agencies, and institutions all over the world. The names may have changed, the stakes are much lower, but the pattern is identical. A leader knows what is right, the crowd pushes back, the leader folds. Pilot had every tool he needed to do the right thing. He had the legal authority, he had the political standing, he had the truth on his side. It was confirmed by two separate evaluations. What he lacked was the will to act on it when doing so came at a cost. The moment the crowd applied pressure, Pilot stopped leading and started managing the situation. He tried to split the difference. He tried to put feet in both sides. He offered to release the prisoner as a compromise. He stalled. He outsourced the decision to Harold, hoping someone else would solve the problems for him. He proposed a middle ground, flog the man and release him as if half concession would satisfy people who wanted blood. It did not. The voices grew louder. And then Pottett gave them what they wanted. Leaders today do the same thing under a different set of circumstances. I could go on and on of all the examples that we've discussed here many times. We may call it pragmatism. We may call it picking our battles. We may call it waiting for the right time. We may call it reading the room. But what it actually is is his cowardice. Coward is stressed in the language of strategy. See, Pilate's case is instructive because it removes every excuse. He was not uncertain about the facts. He was not confused about his authority. He did not lack any information or different options in the Gospel of Luke that makes that unmistakably clear by recording three separate declarations of innocence before the final decision. Pilate was simply afraid of what doing the right thing would cost him. The crowd was loud, the religious leaders were threatening, the political consequences of standing firm looked worse than the moral consequences of backing down, so he made the calculation that most cowardly leaders, and I would say most leaders, make he decided that his position was worth more than his integrity. That calculation always cost more than it says. Now, what would have courageous leadership looked like in that courtyard? It would have looked like Pilate saying that he already knew to be true about the first declaration and holding that regardless of what came next, it would have looked uncomfortable, the crowd would have not cheered, the religious leaders would have been furious, there may have been consequences, but the decision would have been right, and everyone present would have known it. That is what courage and leadership requires. Not the absence of pressure, but the decision to act rightly in the presence of it. The crowd will always have a preference. Political winds will always blow in some direction. There will always be a version of the easy path that lets the leader avoid short-term conflict at the cost of long-term credibility. Courageous leaders reject that path full stop. Not because they were unaware of the cost, because they understand what is at stake when they don't. Pilate's name has been repeated in churches around the world for 2,000 years. Not as a hero, not as a pragmatist who navigated a difficult situation, but as the man who condemned an innocent person. He condemned the savior of the world. He condemned the innocent land because he lacked the backbone to do otherwise. History does not remember what he preserved by making that choice. It remembers what he surrendered. The leaders in your organization are watching how you handle pressure. They're watching what happens when the crowd gets loud, when the political environment gets difficult, when the right call is also the hard one. When it matters most, will you hold the line? Pontius Pilate had the same question in front of him. He answered it three times before he got it wrong. His final answer is still being recited thousands of years later. Now I hope you're not listening to this on Easter Sunday, but if you are, I felt there's a reason for it. I hope you're spending time with family. Hope you're spending time in worship and service. And I appreciate you for doing so. But I felt led to give you this message, and I it was on the heels of a conversation I had with Dr. Greg Amundsen a couple of weeks ago. You may be familiar with Greg. He was at the forefront of the CrossFit movement a couple of decades ago when he was leading the law enforcement seminars. And at the time, I had a hand in developing CrossFit 1907. It was a CrossFit gym for our police department. And I had brought Greg in for a seminar. And we hooked back up about a year ago. He's teaching at Fletzi now. And I brought him on the podcast to talk all things leadership, as I usually do. But the conversation went a different direction. I think you're going to enjoy it. I certainly did. So without further ado, Dr. Greg Omenson.

Announcement 7:20

Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates, where leaders find the insights, advice, and encouragement they need to lead courageously.

Travis Yates 7:30

Welcome back to the show. I'm so honored you decided to spend a few minutes with us here today. And the day is going to be a banger, folks. We have Dr. Greg Almondson on the show. He's an ordained minister and a leader committed to proclaiming God's word with clarity and conviction. He holds dual master's degrees in ministry and leadership and biblical and theological studies from Western Theological Seminary, and he earned his Doctor of Ministry from Regent University, where he's research focused on resilient pathways for law enforcement. Greg is widely considered as one of the nation's leading authorities on resilience, leadership, pastoral counseling, and holistic wellness. Greg integrates theological insight and practical application to inspire transformation in both individuals and communities. In 2001, Greg became a founding athlete of the global CrossFit Movement, personally mentored by its founder, Coach Greg Glassman. That same year, he began advanced studies in Krav Magov, becoming one of the first American law enforcement officers trained in the discipline and the first American law enforcement officer certified to teach it to the profession. Greg serves in federal law enforcement at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. He's an adject, he's an adjunct assistant instruct. He's an adjunct assistant professor at Regent University, where he teaches courses in leadership, chaplaincy, and qualitative research methodology. And he's authored 10 books. And Greg, I could go on, but I'm not going to, man. Thanks for being here. How are you?

Greg Amundson 8:58

I'm doing well. Thank you for having me on the show, my friend.

Travis Yates 9:01

Man, you know when I look at your your life and your career, Greg, and I'm not sure I've ever met someone. And we met years ago and we recently rekindled on a random beach somewhere. I don't even remember where I was, but I'll tell the quick story. My wife and I are on a beach. I was teaching at a conference, and I think you were teaching at the same conference. And you know, you're working out on the beach, doing some running, doing some things that I should have been doing. And you know, my wife's trying to, you know, make sure I didn't see her looking at this, you know, random guy that's running on the beach with a six-pack. And of course, I I know she's watching, and so I go, I'm gonna be the cool person here. So I go, hey Greg, how are you? And she looks at me like I was nuts, right? Because I looked up and saw that it was you, man. And we got to talk for a few minutes. It was great seeing you, and man, I've been following you for a while, but you're you you have just done, I mean, you've lived several lifetimes here, and so I'm gonna really enjoy getting into it. And I think before we do that, I'll just let you sort of walk our audience through your journey to where you are today.

Greg Amundson 10:00

Well, thank you for the kind words and the gracious introduction. I really appreciate it. Well, brother, the challenge is like you said, there's been so many different doors that God has opened over the years. And with every door that's opened, I feel like He's ushered me into an entirely new season. So it's hard to reverse engineer or trace the steps that are.

Travis Yates 10:28

Well, and I I want I don't mean to interrupt you, but I think that's profound words because a season is a way to say, when I look at my life, I almost see three different lives, right? And you can see the break in the season. And I think so many in law enforcement struggle with that. They they they identify so strongly with the profession that when those seasons come and go, and oftentimes those seasons are closed doors, and maybe we don't want them closed, but then God opens up other doors, and I think people have fear to walk through it. I'm not saying you've never had fear, but man, you've walked through a handful of doors. I mean, your resume today looks nothing like it looked like when we first met, way back in the CrossFit days. And I'm just I'm just curious uh of sort of how you've successfully navigated that because I think so many in our audience struggle with that.

Greg Amundson 11:18

Well, I would not be able to describe my life any open door, any success. I would not be able to describe my life apart from my relationship with Jesus. So as I press in, as I lean into him, things gain greater clarity. Now, conversely, to the extent in different seasons of my life that I have lacked that intimacy, I also lacked direction, I lacked purpose, I lacked a sense of mission in my life. But what's astonishing is that even during those times of my life when I was not walking as close to the Lord as I am now, God has been able to redeem all those seasons of my life. And there's a scripture that I think says this so well. God can work everything into a pattern for good for those who love him. So even in those times of my life when I was independent, doing my own thing, convinced I knew the way to go, once God redirected my path, he even worked out those what we could call mistakes in my life into the pattern that got me to where I am today.

Travis Yates 12:34

Yeah, man, I our our our paths are so different, but they're so similar in that way because I would be so stubborn uh fighting what I think God wanted me to do. Like he would slam a door shut where it would hurt, right? And and it would literally wake me up. And I'm with you. Those moments when I was in the word and I was more close to God, because it's just human nature, right? We call that sin where we get separated and we think we know better, me, myself, and I. And you look on social media, and that's literally all that you see these days. But I would encourage everybody out there, because you said a couple things that I think are so important purpose and mission. And people are asking themselves right now, listening, what is my purpose? What is my mission? And I think what you're saying, and what I will say is you won't know it until your faith meets God in the greatest leadership book that is known to man, which is called the Bible.

Greg Amundson 13:30

Very true. You know, I've been reflecting a lot for people that might be new to scripture, they're wondering where to start. They're searching for purpose. There's an amazing message. I just spoke on it today. There's an amazing message in the first two chapters of the book of Nehemiah. Five efforts can summarize uh answers to a lot of the questions that I think our listeners might have. Nehemiah he uh starts with prayer or supplication, as it's referred to in scripture. He starts with prayer. That's the foundation for everything. So if we're searching for purpose apart from prayer, we'll never find it. So Nehemiah starts with uh prayer, and what he prays for is what uh you just spoke to. He's praying that God would give him mission. He wants to be sent on mission, he wants to have a purpose in life. So he prays, God answers his prayer, he sends him on mission. Then Nehemiah asks for other aspects to support the mission. He asks for a safe passage, he asks for supplies, he asks in a very bizarre way, he even asks for challenge. We encounter a character in that chapter named Sen Balat, who begins to oppose Nehemiah. So it's just a really encouraging book of the Bible, very practical wisdom, but I think it speaks directly to people who are searching for that mission and that purpose in life.

Travis Yates 15:00

Yeah, and what I have seen is when you search for that purpose and mission and you're in prayer, God, you don't always hear an audible voice, but God has given every single listener out there, every human being on the planet, certain talents and gifts. Right. And I found myself the happiest and them uh within my career, within my personal life, when I was using those gifts that God gave me and that and it in those certain roles, right? So I think when you talk about law enforcement, you talk a lot about empowerment. I think our leaders need to hone in on the people that work for them, what are the talents they have? Everybody has different talents, and if you can mold those talents into their job, you I mean, forget about uh, you know, people not being happy at work and low morale, you're gonna boost it immediately. Because I know in the, I don't know, I did 30 years in law enforcement, and I can think of about 10 years where I think I had leaders that put me in positions where I was able to use my talents. I felt like I was in the right place, I felt like I was within my purpose there at my job. And I think it's behoove all leaders to go, you know, know your people, care about your people, know what talents they have. It's because they're not just cops that they have innate talents within the profession, and you put them in those roles and then just sit back and enjoy the what comes, right?

Greg Amundson 16:21

Well said, you're exactly right.

Self-Help Culture Versus Scripture

Travis Yates 16:24

So, you know, I'm we're already way off target because I had a script of what I was going to say. We're really way off target, and that's fine. I want you to sort of describe people that may be listening that aren't believers, may go, what is this? And they're talking about Jesus and they're talking about this and that. Well, listen, if you've been to a leadership seminar or you read a leadership book, you read portions of the Bible. You cannot get away from it. It's the greatest leadership manual known to man. Yeah, there's some crazy stories in there, and you get in the old testament, and I don't even know what some of that stuff means, and that's all normal. But when you when you break down a John Maxwell book or you break down a leadership seminar, I don't care where it's at, and I've been to all of them, unfortunately. There's some of them I'm not proud of. There are there are increments of the Bible in there. I mean, every single person listening in law enforcement has heard of this term servant leadership. Maybe they're not familiar, maybe they've not seen it, but they've heard it. Well, that comes straight from scripture. And so let's speak to that because I what I am so uh what it's so awesome to hear you talk about, Greg, is you don't separate it. Like there is no separation with you. I mean, when you speak about leadership right after that, you're speaking about biblical theology at the same time. Just kind of talk to our audience about that.

Greg Amundson 17:34

Sure. Thanks for asking. Well, I'll share something with you, my friend. So, other other than my beautiful wife Jessica, you're the you're the first person I've shared this with. So I'm working on a new book. It's called Why We Pray.

Travis Yates 17:46

Yeah. And you're more than working on it, Greg. That's a that's an initial version from Amazon they sent you over there to look at, right?

Greg Amundson 17:54

Yeah, it's it's one of my proof copies. It's a good idea.

Travis Yates 17:56

I recognize it. Yeah.

Greg Amundson 17:58

So I mentioned that because in one of the chapters in the book, I talk about the self-help culture. And what's astonishing is that every year the self-help culture increases by millions of dollars.

Travis Yates 18:17

Oh yeah, yeah. It seems like we're not getting better.

Greg Amundson 18:21

Right. The budget will be going down, not up. So it's like, what is going on? And I've got so many colleagues in that space, and I love them dearly. I love what they're doing. At the same time, the answer, as you said, is in the Bible. And I have that book, you know, right here. The answers are right here. And so it's unfortunate that uh we get sidetracked by the myth that we can have fulfillment apart from God. The myth that we can have purpose, that we can have mission, that we can have meaning, that we can have joy, love, everything that we're searching for, the myth or the lie or the sin, is that we can have all that apart from God, right? Which is a lie because no, you can't. Apart from God, that will distract you, but it won't fulfill you. So what we have to spend more time doing is reading scripture, praying, and trusting.

Travis Yates 19:27

Yeah. Yeah. And you just mentioned the most difficult thing, I think, not only in my life, but probably every Christian out there, which is trust, right? Which is trust. Like, like we especially in the law enforcement profession, we it's about control. I mean, we can just be honest about it. We all know we know thousands of police officers. We have a control problem at times. Cont wanting to control things for ourselves is sin, not giving over to God is sin. And what would you tell somebody that is struggling? Because I guarantee you it's not just me, and I'm sure you have your times where you struggle because you're human too, a flesh. We all struggle with that trust issue, right? But you have to overcome that. What advice would you give our listeners for?

Greg Amundson 20:10

Well, first I would just extend understanding, compassion, grace to use a biblical term, because that's exactly the issue that Jesus himself faced in his ministry. He was trying to share people in the entire New Testament, is unpacking his message that rather than working uh for something, you can receive it freely apart from any work. The imagery in the Bible that I think is so compelling is a dead person. What can a dead person do for themselves?

Travis Yates 20:44

Yeah, yeah.

Greg Amundson 20:45

Nothing. And the idea is that we're dead to sin. So what can I do for myself if I'm dead? Right. And that's the reason why the self-help is so prevalent, is that as long as we're dead, we'll keep spending money on things that will bring us back to life. But they never do.

Travis Yates 21:05

It's not just a self-help. I mean, you get into the coaching gurus and all of this stuff. I mean, anybody that's online sees it. Uh, I'm in that space just like you. Uh, even in the leadership space, we see people not want to talk about the root cause of problems. I mean, I would be in churches on the job uh during, you know, with all these community groups, and I would talk about the root cause of crime, which is sin. Right. And then you would have thought I was an alien saying that. But how many? But when you look at law enforcement, how many programs have we been? How many flavors of the month? How many real time crime centers, how much technology? And crime continues to be prevalent in many communities because nobody wants to talk about the root cause of it. And everyone talks about this oh, separation of church and state. That has nothing to do with that. You're not forcing a religion on anybody, you're just telling them the truth. Are you not?

Greg Amundson 21:58

Great point. I love the I haven't heard it phrased that way, man. That's really good, my friend. That's really good. To come back to your question, though, with trust and with faith, I would just start with that compassion. I know it's challenging. Then I would say, just trust. Yeah. Yeah.

Travis Yates 22:17

It really is so simple.

Greg Amundson 22:19

Open your heart, open your mind.

Trust When Control Feels Safer

Travis Yates 22:20

Yeah. And I think the problem is it's so simple, we don't really believe it, right? But I would just challenge everybody. And you're speaking to somebody that that after retirement, unfortunately, I become closer to God because I was just too busy and too important when I was on the job. And I think that's a lot of people's stories. But I am telling you, it's radically changed my life. And I think to myself, man, if I would have been doing this for the last 20 years, I would have written 10 books like Greg Obenson. I mean, there's no telling what I would have been doing, right? But it really is awesome to see. And, you know, Greg, obviously, you and I both met in the fitness industry because I was enamored by CrossFit. We brought, we were the first CrossFit gym in Oklahoma at law enforcement. I and a couple of partners brought that to our agency. We brought you into a seminar early, early on. You were doing that heavily. And I want to talk to you about how fitness equals leadership, because I'm convinced that it's one in the same. Sort of draw that comparison of why it's so important that you have to integrate fitness with your overall leadership strategy.

Greg Amundson 23:23

Well, one of the principles that's close to my heart, we see it in scripture, is modeling the way, also known in more modern circles as leading by example. Modeling the way. So in law enforcement or any public safety or warrior archetype profession, in order to model the way, you have to have a strong, resilient, durable, robust body. It's imperative. So physical fitness is necessity for law enforcement. So that means if you're in law enforcement with an aspiration to lead law enforcement officers, you have to model the way in your physical fitness. It's inseparable from your capacity to lead. So in my journey in law enforcement, those two things have gone hand in hand. Physical fitness, leadership, protecting, serving. I'm not sure that I would understand law enforcement with those integrated components pulled apart. I'm not sure it would be possible. I think those things have to be fully integrated together.

Travis Yates 24:28

Yeah, you just quoted uh one of the five things from a great book out there, and I'm losing the name of the book. Uh, but modeling the way was an integral component of this leadership.

Greg Amundson 24:37

I think it's called the leadership challenge. The leadership challenge.

Travis Yates 24:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Great book for anybody listening.

Greg Amundson 24:42

Uh no, what's amazing about that book is if you look at those five leadership practices, they are right from scripture.

Travis Yates 24:48

Yeah, in fact, in our in our courageous leadership seminar, we're gonna get the courage in a minute out of Joshua because we we modeled our seminar on that type of courage, but we actually bring that model into our class and we we go through it. And then you can bring up the research, Greg, and you're big into research. We can bring up the research out there, the peer-reviewed research, and it is spot on when it comes to leadership.

Greg Amundson 25:10

Exactly, exactly. I mean, anything that is true will be revealed in science, yeah, if it's truth. So we would anticipate seeing like John C. Maxwell or leadership challenge, we would anticipate seeing truth in those books. Yep, yeah, but yeah, we shouldn't stop there. We should reverse engineer why is that true? Where is the originality of that truth? What's the oranges of that truth? Then we'll find it in scripture.

Travis Yates 25:38

Yeah, yeah, and you're dead right. I was uh just spoke, I spoke to a bunch of Maryland chiefs a few weeks ago, and I I brought this aspect up of biblical scripture and and how it is the leadership manual. And man, I got a ton of emails from a bunch of people saying, You're right, I just discovered this, I've been reading the Bible. So I almost feel like there's a resurgence here when the leadership circles with listen, you're both you and I are in this space that man, it is complicated because leadership, resilience, there's some not so great folks involved in that. I think I can just say that, and we both know that. Um, and uh, but you bring some you bring so much clarity with that, Greg. And let's talk about resilience because I know you're studying that and you always talk about that. Obviously, if you look at the law enforcement profession, there's something broken. There's things aren't right, and probably we could always say that, but that but I think in the last decade there's just something broken. Of course, that's why we launched our leadership seminar about a decade ago, because I was seeing it firsthand long before 2020. Uh, just people not doing the right thing, being more worried about what things look like, being more worried about the you know their reputation, being more worried about things instead of doing what's right. How does resilience play a fact in that? Because resilience isn't just checking a box and bringing a class in, it's it's different than that. When you talk about resilience, just kind of give us your overarching view on that.

Greg Amundson 27:02

Sure. My entire disrotation and postdoctoral work is in that space. However, brother, can we circle back for a moment to the Bible? Because I just felt convicted by the Holy Spirit on this. What we have to remember with scripture is if we open up the word because I want to be a better leader, we're opening the word for the wrong reason.

Travis Yates 27:27

Yeah.

Greg Amundson 27:28

So we study the scripture to know God and to learn to love him and to worship him and to trust him. Apart from his revelation in scripture, we will not know who he is. He has chosen to reveal himself uniquely in the Bible. That's where we meet Jesus. We have an encounter with a living word of God. So the book I wrote, and the book you write, the books we read, these words don't matter.

Travis Yates 27:58

Right. Right.

Greg Amundson 27:59

These words are gonna pass away. But this word will live forever because it's alive and active. So let me share this regarding leadership in the Bible. One of my mentors, his name's Dr. Gary Tuck. He continues to walk with me to this day. He said, here's the number one rule that you learn in the Bible about leadership. You are not the leader.

Travis Yates 28:26

Right?

Fitness As Leadership By Example

Greg Amundson 28:27

That's right. We have a king who we serve, we have a leader. So that makes me a follower. That makes me a disciple. Now, what's encouraging is that as we follow, as we put our trust and our faith in God, gradually He will entrust us with leading his flock. But if I'm only going to Bible because I want to learn how to be a better leader, well, it's in there, you'll find those answers, but you'll miss it point.

Travis Yates 29:00

Yeah, you're missing everything.

Greg Amundson 29:01

You're missing everything.

Travis Yates 29:02

And and that's a great segue because we often talk about in our seminars and our and our and the things that we write is you have to lead yourself first. You have to be a follower first. Once again, biblical principle, right? Nice. Um, because if you don't do that, no one's gonna follow you. You have to be a follower first, which which once again, we didn't invent that, Greg. We it's it's in scripture. Uh Holy Spirit's given that to us and rebuilding itself through scripture. Um, you speak to a lot of law enforcement officers around the country. Just what's the overall sense you're hearing from them, Greg? There's some frustrations or probably this kind of overall. I mean, I'll just speak for mine. I'm here, I'm hearing frustrations. What are you hearing?

Greg Amundson 29:43

Same. I've hear challenged, people feel challenged. What I've noticed too, this now comes back to your previous question regarding resilience. What I've noticed is that agencies do a wonderful job for the most part of providing uh resilience or wellness resources. Thinking that the resilience resource or the wellness resource is resilience or is wellness. However, the officers and the agents, they're not conceptualizing resilience or wellness as a resource that they can call when they need help. They're conceptualizing resilience and wellness as an intrinsic uh uh uh faculty that they need to develop within themselves. So you can see how these paths uh are quickly going in different directions. The agency is continuing to invest in programs and resources, meanwhile, officers, agents that are in dire need of ways to intrinsically develop those qualities within themselves. And that I think is the challenge is you have agents and officers who desperately want to be fit, they want to be well, they want to be durable, they want to have grit, but they're not sure where to begin. But they do know it's not going to be found on a phone or on a wellness app. That's not uh going to provide me what I'm looking for. So that's one of the biggest challenges I think the leaders have faced is uh not neglecting the resources, continuing to develop those while simultaneously finding creative ways to just create a culture within the agency that is thriving, that is fit, that is well, that's seeking challenge, that faces adversity and uses that adversity to make themselves stronger.

Travis Yates 31:38

And oftentimes it starts with that leader, with that chief.

Greg Amundson 31:41

Absolutely.

Travis Yates 31:42

Modeling the way. I mean, it starts with them and they see what they're doing, and then then it's sort of the culture sort of leads from there.

Resilience Beyond Apps And Programs

Greg Amundson 31:49

Exactly. Here's an interesting example, Travis, because you and I both have that research background. So numerous surveys over the years have indicated that peer support and chaplaincy are the two resources that officers perceive as being the most effective. So agencies start to pour financial resources into developing peer support programs. Well, unfortunately, those surveys are numerical. They're based on quantitative data. The issue is if you look at the qualitative data, the narrative, the stories, officers are not describing the formal peer support network. What they're describing is the relationships like you and I have had over the years, literally the peer relationships within the agency. That's what they're referring to. And that's just one of the numerous examples of how, even though we're striving as researchers, as scholars, to advance knowledge and wisdom to support the agencies, we've got to be really careful how that data is understood and applied. Because this is just one example of many where we're still missing the mark.

Travis Yates 33:01

Yeah, and uh you're right, uh, qualitative is so important. Uh, my dissertation, uh, I won't go into too many details, but uh a lot of the audience here knows it because I've discussed it before. But it was about communication and mission and things like that. And when you talk to the officers and interview them, most of them don't even know what you're supposed to do when they go to work. Like that's a problem. Like they don't even know what the mission is. You know, so because we we put these mission statements in our policies and we call it good, right? That's not that's not going to be good enough. It's pretty clear. And so I feel like uh from a lot of the law law enforcement professionals that I speak to is from the outside, it looks like a really nice Christmas present, everything looks great, but internally in the walls, there's a lot of chaos going on, and that starts, of course, with leadership. That's what you do all day and every day, right?

Greg Amundson 33:48

That's correct. You're exactly right. Our agencies, our academies, our advanced training programs, we're doing a tremendous job. And I know you're a big contributor to this space as well. We do a tremendous job equipping officers with the ability to identify pre-assault indicators that are out there in the operational environment. The challenge, however, is very few people, you are one of them that are doing this work, but very few people are teaching officers and leaders how to mitigate the stressors within the agency itself.

Travis Yates 34:20

Yeah. Yeah. And you know the research is pretty solid. The stress is coming from the agency. It's not coming from outside forces. It's internal.

Greg Amundson 34:28

Exactly. And that's because the officers are trained to deal with those outside forces, but they're not trained how to deal with the stress within the agency. We don't anticipate that.

Being A Person After God’s Heart

Travis Yates 34:36

Yeah, yeah. Huge man. Um, when we could talk, you're gonna have to come back on, Greg. But let me, I want I want to get to a couple things I really wanted to get to. Because you write we wrote something on your website that I I thought was phenomenal. By the way, I want to just I don't know if I want to congratulate you because every Christian should be doing it, but I love how you you don't separate your faith and your life. It's all out there for everybody to see. It's something that I've tried to work on for the last few years. Uh, you know, and I I've I've I'm friends with Dave Grossman, and and he has implemented a lot a lot more in recent years as well. And I'm trying to encourage every Christian trainer out there to do that because we've been sort of lied to from from entities going, oh, you can't talk about things like that. Well, of course you can. Yeah, there's of course you can. So I you've been a big encouragement for me because you don't separate that. But you wrote something right on your website, and this is what you wrote. My mission is to be a man after God's own heart. You reference Acts 13, 22. Tell us what that means to you.

Greg Amundson 35:35

Well, that's both in Acts, and we also see that as a testimony about King David. So that was God's description of King David. How awesome!

Travis Yates 35:45

Yeah, yeah, how awesome.

Greg Amundson 35:47

That's the man I want to be. I want to be known as a man who loves God with all his mind, all his heart, all his soul, just like Jesus commanded all of his disciples to do. That's the greatest commandment, in addition to loving your neighbor as yourself. There's also a really good proverb, Proverbs chapter three and four, two of my favorites. But in Proverbs chapter three, it says, Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, submit to God, and he will make your path to be straight. And that's really the first step. If we want to become a man after God's own heart, we have to trust in God with all our heart, lean not on our own understanding, put our faith in him, follow wherever he leads us. That's being a man or a woman after God's own heart.

Travis Yates 36:37

In 2018, I was in Hobby Lobby of all places. It's like Etsy on steroids, as you know. And I saw, and I had been knee deep in the leadership space for some time. I'd already written a book on it, and I read a scripture, Joshua 1 9, be strong and courageous. And immediately the Holy Spirit told me, You've got to bring this into your training. Quit shying away from it. And I started doing it that day. And you recently wrote something, and I wanted to read what you wrote, and we're going to close with this because I thought it was so awesome. You say, Be strong and courageous. We read that in Joshua, but the strength is never self-generated, it is anchored in the promise for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go. I'll give you the last word, Greg, based on that.

Greg Amundson 37:21

Brother, that's the last word. We have to end with scripture.

Where To Find Greg

Travis Yates 37:26

Yeah, awesome, awesome, man. Greg, where where can people find you? Uh, and listen, if you want to dive deep into what Greg's talking about, he has all the resources right there on his website. The first book I read from him that encouraged me was called Fire Breather Fitness. That was what set me on fire. Uh, but man, there's been a lot since then, Greg. So where can they find you? How can they contact you?

Greg Amundson 37:47

Thank you, brother. I think my website might be a good place to start. I'm being more active on LinkedIn. And I also have Facebook and Instagram, but I just haven't quite been as active in that space.

Travis Yates 37:58

Yeah, I'm the same way, man. I can't stand those up those last two you mentioned. It's just I'm not terrible. But man, uh Greg, it's been great. Uh phenomenal talk. I feel like we got to do this more often, and we certainly will. And uh so thanks so much for being here and taking the time.

Greg Amundson 38:15

Thanks for having me, my friend.

Travis Yates 38:17

And if you've been watching or you've been listening, thank you so much for spending your time with us. And just remember, lead on and stay courageous.

Announcement 38:26

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