The Counterfeit Sheepdogs

We examine how counterfeit sheepdogs infiltrate agencies, the media, and leadership spaces, why strong leadership and vetting matter more than charisma, and how to trust intuition without slipping into cynicism. Dr. Olivia Johnson shares practical tools for spotting red flags, setting boundaries, and protecting the mission.

We encourage you to read her article on this same topic.

In this episode, we:

• definine shepherds, sheepdogs, wolves, and coyotes
• patterns fraudsters use to enter training and wellness work
• weak leadership, groupthink, and silence as enablers
• narcissistic traits, entitlement, and meltdown tells
• practical vetting steps and evidence to request
• using intuition as data and testing before trust
• building transparent processes and exit plans
• encouragement to learn, repair, and guard the flock

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Transcript

Welcome & Guest Introduction

Announcement 0:01

Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates, where leaders find the insights, advice, and encouragement they need to lead courageously.

Defining Shepherds, Sheepdogs, Wolves, Coyotes

Travis Yates 0:12

Welcome back to the show. I'm so honored you decided to spend a few minutes with us here today. And we have a returning guest, Dr. Olivia Johnson is the founder of the Blue Wall Institute and Shepherds and Sheepdogs, where she does consulting and needs assessment and training and writing and all things wellness. She's considered a subject matter expert in police officer health and wellness, police officer suicide and suicide prevention and awareness in first responders. And we had her on the first time. We dove deep into those issues, very important issues. I can tell you right now that if you need training or consulting in this area, Dr. Johnson is the one to have. But today what we're going to do is we're going to dial in this topic to something that is near and dear to my heart. I know it is to Dr. Johnson's heart. And what brought my attention to it was an article that she recently wrote called The Counterfeit Sheepdog. Uh so before we get into that, Dr. Johnson, thanks for being here. How are you?

Dr. Olivia Johnson 1:14

I'm well, Travis. Thanks for having me back again. I appreciate it.

Travis Yates 1:17

You know, you wrote this article about the counterfeit sheepdog, and it started off like this there's a difference between protecting the flock and pretending to. And I I'll tell you with my personal experience in the law enforcement space in various areas, specifically leadership and even the media in some way, there are a lot of fake fraudsters out there. I I have had the very uh unfortunate to meet some of them, even to get sort of hurt by a few of them. And so is that when you talk about when you talk about sheepdogs and wolves and things like that, sort of give us a brief overview on on your vernacular when it comes to that.

Dr. Olivia Johnson 2:00

Yeah, so you know, I know that it's been used before um, you know, by other people, but the idea is really honing in something different here from the shepherds and sheepdog space. And that's the one thing we usually miss is that shepherd piece that kind of, you know, he's there for everyone. It's it's there to protect everyone. And then you have your sheepdog, you know, that's out there protecting and serving every day. And you have the wolf piece that that comes in. And the wolf, listen, the wolf oftentimes can get in your pack as well and look just like a sheepdog and and sound just like a sheepdog. And yet they're very uh they're evil and they're they're very menacing, if you will, and they can cause a lot of damage before anybody finds out. There's also that coyote that wants to be a sheepdog, uh, but oftentimes they're the wannabes. You know, they they look the part and play the part for a little bit, but they can't keep it up long term. Uh that's what I that's that's kind of where this counterfeit idea came in. Um they have that idea that um what they wanna be, but what they actually possess isn't anything near a sheepdog, and uh they're just waiting to be found out.

When Frauds Infiltrate Programs

Travis Yates 3:01

Yeah, and I would imagine in any profession or any specialty you had this, right? Because I I'll give you my first sort of experience with this. I I co-founded a program called Below 100 many years ago, and Livby, I think you were involved in that very early on. And so we would it became very popular very, very quick, and uh kind of surprised me to be honest. It's still mandated in many, many states out there for training. But we were doing trainer trainers around the country, and I noticed that those rooms would be would have some people generally wanted to take this information and help law enforcement. But there was always a section in there, and I could sometimes I could smell it out pretty quick because they would ask certain questions, you know, uh that they weren't really there to help law enforcement, they were there to help themselves or to pad the resume or to and and and frankly, a few of them was a were able to really get involved intimately in that organization and ultimately hurt that entire organization and kind of tricked everybody. So there is a difference, I think, with if maybe the they're just sort of you know they're leaching onto the head coach so they can sort of just get a little bit of advantage. But I think what you're talking about is is is really on the level of evil where they're going to try to get involved to a point to not only steal it or or or alter it or completely destroy it, correct?

Dr. Olivia Johnson 4:22

Oh yeah, and I mean you couldn't have said that better when you said the smell part of that. My next article for Substack is about the smell test. And the idea is this we get really comfortable uh in law enforcement, you get really comfortable, and we also have a couple things that we like to say, and one of those big things that we like to say is we don't trust anybody. And I say BS. We trust everybody that comes in with the new snake oil.

Weak Leadership And Front-Stage Charlatans

Travis Yates 4:43

I mean, Oh, oh you you just nailed it. I just had to interrupt you because I've never you've I've never heard so much truth in my life. And all you gotta do to see this is to watch the latest, greatest Navy SEAL or some person with a fancy book and a title, and then they're getting front stage, right?

Dr. Olivia Johnson 5:02

You know what, you know why they get front stage? Because your leadership isn't strong enough to detect it themselves. And that's where it starts to fall down. When you have a leader that may be a really good person and they really, you know, and maybe in a small place they they function really well. But if their leadership skills are not strong enough and they're not stronger than the the people that they are leading, whoever comes in there and gives them a little bit of direction and tries to take them under their wing and then lead for them becomes the person that leads. And the problem with that is this that is exactly how so many of these fraudsters get into these agencies conducting training that they're not qualified to teach, taking all your money, you don't get anything in return. And when they leave, you're you're sat in there, you kind of sit there looking around, like, what the hell just happened? And they do it over and over and over again because it works.

How Wolves Pass The Smell Test

Travis Yates 5:48

Yeah, you you wrote something and and this really kind of spoke to me. It says this is very dangerous because they appear harmless. Doesn't mean they are. And and listen, I just have I think probably unless you are a piece of you know what wolf out there listening, and I hope I don't have too many in my audience, uh, everybody probably listening in law enforcement, they probably know exactly what I'm talking about because they've been hurt or burned. And um I can just tell you it hurts a lot worse because man, you're almost tricked, right? Like, like Libby, you and I both come from very much a I mean, we just want to help people. Like, I don't I don't take sales calls because I would give it all away for free. I make my wife do that kind of stuff. I mean, I just have this burning desire for the rest of my life to do things that help the profession. And I know you do as well. And and it's not done for the money because I I seen where you live, you see where I live, trust me. I know what kind of cars we drive. So, but people that come in and what we're talking about is is they act like the same way, but ultimately it gets blown up. And I've been burned by that. Oh, they just want to help, or they just want to be part of this this whatever we're trying to build. And man, it's painful when it when you get burned by it. And I guess I would ask you, I think I want to tell you that I've sort of I won't get burned again. But I'm I'm specifically thinking of three times as a grown band where I was completely and I and I I'm cynical, you know. I I I I I understand what we're talking about here in this article. We I have a very clear picture, and even me, I've been burned specifically three times, and uh, and every one of them was a very difficult time, um, tough to recover from. And you know, not that it's fine, not that not that you know I was like financially destroyed, but just like you thought you were you thought you had a friend, you thought you had a a partner in what you were trying to build. What are some telltale signs early on that our listeners can can do? And by the way, if you're not in law enforcement or you're not in training, I mean this is this is with family and associated friends. This is these are people problems. This has been a problem. These are people problems, Travis.

Narcissism, Manipulation, And Damage

Dr. Olivia Johnson 7:56

And whenever you have people involved, you're gonna have this kind of stuff. See, it hurts even worse for people like us because we believe that we have a perception and we have this like special tool that can that can smell people out, right? The smell test. And we think that our perception and our belief of something is good. So what happens and why we get burnt more often and why it is harder for us oftentimes is because we say we don't trust people, but then we let them in. And what happens is this we're often fooled by the rest of the sheepdogs because here's what happens we don't do adequate background checks, we don't vet people, we bring them in because they might say or do something that we like, or they speak on behalf of a group and they're able to say things that we can't who wear a badge, maybe who are working, can't say on their own. So they kind of take on this idea that they're speaking for us. But what happens is once they pass the smell test with one sheepd, right? And somebody goes, man, that's a good person, that's a good guy, that's a good gal, everybody else follows suit and goes, Oh, well, they've been vetted already. And then they just assume that this person has been let in by the group. And what happens is by the time you turn around, it is a wolf in sheep's clothing, literally, and they have done so much damage. You know, you hear people saying, Man, that person's really dangerous, or they're really unprofessional. They say stuff they shouldn't, they're a dumpster fire walking everywhere they go. When you hear that, the problem is this you've already let them in. They are already in here, you've let them do a lot of damage, and now getting them out is more difficult. And here's why: because you have sat silent the entire time and you have let everyone else say, Oh, yeah, they're okay, they're okay, they're okay without question, right? So the problem isn't really confronting the person now at this point that might be the problem. It's convincing the rest of the sheepdogs who think they know what they're talking about because they can't be wrong. And damn, if their perception's off, then they're really off other places. And the truth is, we are wrong a lot of times, and we just don't like to admit it, myself included.

Travis Yates 9:49

And one specific example I can think of was a narcissistic personality disorder. I don't think people know this, that that's an actual mental health condition. And it's the most difficult mental health condition because the whole idea of being a narcissist is you never admit you're wrong, and so they never seek to correct it. Uh is that all the time in this wolf mindset, or is that part of the time? And how would you know the difference? Because if anybody out there's ever dealt with a true narcissist, well, that's about that you're talking about a destruction wherever they go because they it's a complete magic illusion. Like you've totally taken aback when you figure this out. And and so how much of that is involved in this too? Because you know, one of the things that the narcissist seeks is complete attention, right? Complete control. And in the sense of the Blow 100 program and another business that I had where someone claimed to be a guru consultant that will that will do this or that, that was what was involved there. So, so what's your thoughts on that?

Silence, Groupthink, And Enablers

Dr. Olivia Johnson 10:48

Yeah, and I, you know, I can't speak in depth about the narcissistic personality disorder because I'm not a clinician, but I have dealt with several in my day. Yeah, and that's the part that makes it so dangerous, is because they're so convincing. Listen, if they came in here looking like a complete fraudster and a con, we would sniff them out immediately. My God, the canines would sniff them out, right?

Travis Yates 11:06

But they had to top hat on and they were selling the they were selling the potions, right?

Dr. Olivia Johnson 11:12

And they come in here and they literally are it's a game of smoking mirrors and card games and card houses, and it's all of that. And yet we're like dazzled by it. You know, we're dazzled and we get a front row seat to it, and we don't realize how quickly that they really have bamboozled us, and it happens really quickly. But here's the problem with sheep dogs, and here's what I'm seeing as a trend that's really disturbing to me is once they see that this person or this these people have done something wrong, right? Whether it's illegal, immoral, unethical, the sheepdog then will put his nose to the ground and put his tail between his legs and walk away as if nothing's happened because they can't confront this individual. Um, I don't know if it's fear, um, I don't know if it's cowardice. I wouldn't think that that would be in a sheepdog, but for me, I've seen it personally happen where these individuals knew something wasn't right. They knew someone had done something wrong and they didn't speak up. And what happens is they start talking in their own little circles. So everybody starts comparing their stories about this individual they got a problem with, and they start going, yeah, yeah, you just need to stay away from that person. And I keep thinking, man, why don't you guys just call this this crap out? Why are you sitting here like this? Because that's not what real sheepdogs do. So what'll happen then eventually it'll burn up because every good, you know, every good, I hate to say it, but every good shit show will come to an end, so to speak, right? And what'll happen is once those stories start leaking out, everybody gets the courage together and they come back as a group, they out this person, and then every story end of the book will come spewing out of Facebook and all social media, and everybody will share their peace, but not one person will stand up to this person on their own and take care of it because what they've done is they've let the wolf in. They've all by by you know, literally vicariously have let this wolf in. He's done a lot of damage. And now to convince all the other sheepdogs that we've made a huge mistake here is gonna be really hard to do because it's hard to convince sheepdogs that they've made a mistake, especially in an area like this.

Travis Yates 13:01

Yeah, I think I think part of it is certainly cowardice, but the other part of it is probably embarrassment.

Dr. Olivia Johnson 13:05

Yes.

Legal Barriers, Theft, And Red Flags

Travis Yates 13:06

I know, I know for me, and I'm I'm just as guilty of this, is I was I was mad at myself. But the other part is is let's not discount this, Libby. These wolves are not stupid, they build a legal barrier around them so they can't get outed publicly, right? I mean I'm thinking of one specific case I was involved, of course. I I told you earlier it was three, is there was an NDA at the beginning of the relationship, which should have been the first clue, right? Should have been the first clue, but it was sold in a way that kind of made sense. And so they build a legal barrier, do they not to try to because they know they're gonna get outed by some people.

Dr. Olivia Johnson 13:40

Absolutely. I've actually dealt with this personally, you know, and it's really frustrating. It's like I've had stuff stolen from me, right? I mean, I had one individual who's since passed away, but I had one individual that actually stole my stuff and didn't even change the clip art. Now, uh and and you know, thank God it didn't really go anywhere, and and I'm not worrying about it now, but you know, I've had it happen recently where someone has taken some of my stuff, and the problem is that you're you're bound by certain things that you can and cannot do, and can and cannot say, I go about things the professional way, do things the right way. And yet these wolves that we're talking about, and these some of these are really just more coyotes, but they do have they have enough intelligence to do what they're doing because they've done it for a long time. But the truth is most of them are really like used car salesmen, they put on a good show, they get their act down, and they learn how to adapt and fit in. So, you know, they they know that you know you can only go so far with things, they they throw around power, money, and influence, and and it really seems to be kind of a protection for them right now. Um, and it works for them. So that's some of the really big red flags that you should be looking at as well.

Intuition, Vetting, And Receipts

Travis Yates 14:41

Yeah, if you're just now joining us, I'm talking to Dr. Livia Johnson. We're talking about uh fraudsters, fakes, people that try to infiltrate your life or your business or your career and try to take it, run it, destroy it, steal it, you name it. And I think it's important for everybody, whether you're in law enforcement or not, to hear this out. I will just tell you uh I want to ask you, Livia, sort of how our audience can watch for this, but I will tell you, I'm just gonna give you a couple and you can add on to that. Like this is just a pattern I've noticed, especially in today's technology where you have uh uh uh you can do very fancy marketing to not and very easily, right? You bring in AI for your LinkedIn post, you bring in even a bad photo can be made to look like a glass glossy photo. Uh, they will portray themselves to be something they're not. Uh maybe they're they're wealthy or they made all this money doing this, and that's so they can help you to do this or that. And so I would say uh I I immediately my red fight's gonna go up if somebody tells me everything they've done. That doesn't matter, does it? I need to see what they've done. Let's talk about that a little bit.

Slick Marketing And Sudden Experts

Dr. Olivia Johnson 15:45

Yeah, and I mean it really is about the fruits that they bear. Um, a lot of people in this realm were, you know, the the first thing I would say to look for is this. Um, I teach some stalking classes and different things, and one of the first things you need to listen to is your intuition. And and it may not kick in immediately, like you might have that little like feeling like something isn't quite right, but I can't articulate it right this minute. You sit with that for a little bit once you're kind of out of that situation and you and you just keep that on your radar. Don't let your don't let your guard down about it. You don't have to be necessarily distrusting of everyone, even though I am pretty much. I mean, I, you know, you gotta you gotta show me who you are reporting to me, right? So, but if something doesn't feel right, that's a huge sign. Do not discount your intuition. It is there for a reason. It is telling you things that you cannot articulate in the moment. It's taking in everything from the environment. So something doesn't feel right, listen to your gut. That's number one. Because you're gonna come back when this happens and you get duped and you go, damn, I should have listened because day one I knew something was wrong. I'll give you an example. I saw someone come out on social media, really boisterous, um, you know, just entitled and um, you know, just acted like they were an expert in this stuff. And it was like I sat there watching, and at first I was reeled in. It was almost like I, it was like they were getting my attention because I'm like, okay, this is a little controversial, you know. I kind of liked it at first, but realized very quickly this was going downhill and it was not good where it was going. So then I was like, damn, I got pulled in there for a little bit, but I realized pretty quickly that something wasn't right. And I listened to my gut, thank God. And I didn't go too far down that, you know, that path. But it happens really quickly. They're saying things that you want to hear, they're saying it for you so you don't have to, right? They're playing into the emotions, they're getting you all worked up, they're causing their own controversy and bringing you in as a spectator, and you get caught up in that momentum because you're joining something bigger than yourself. So it's it's it's pretty obvious at times when you step back from it.

Travis Yates 17:42

Yeah, and listen, I don't want people listening to this going, oh, that's not me. I won't get caught. I'm telling you right now, I I can think of people right now that are manipulating people that are very smart friends of mine. You can't tell them otherwise.

Dr. Olivia Johnson 17:56

The simple test is this have you ever been in a relationship before and you ended up getting out of it and realized that you got duped? Uh it's it's that. See, see, we think we're all special, right? We all have that radar, but the truth is these people are good at what they do, right? Those predators that we talk about, they're good at what they do. They have access to the people they want, they have the verbiage down, they really are chameleons in the area that they want to get into. That's how they get in and that's how they do a lot of damage. Because by the time anyone realizes what they've done, they've created this insulation around them that keeps people from talking, number one, because hey, if we're in a if we're in a group of 10 people and I hate one person in this group because they've done something bad, and everybody else thinks that they walk on water, you think I'm gonna mention in front of that group because I don't know how each of you feel about this person. That's exactly how they exist and how they get better at what they do.

Entitlement, Meltdowns, And Copycats

Travis Yates 18:48

Here's another thing I want people to watch out for. They they seem to come out of nowhere. I've noticed this one. And listen, if you want to see this in real time, move over to LinkedIn and take a look. Yeah, Lincoln may not have the pop political bent that drives me crazy everywhere else, but they seem to come out of nowhere and they look slick with high quality photos, and the posts seem to be perfect, which is you know, they can't even write their own post. That is a huge, if it's too good to be true, it probably is. What do you think about that?

Dr. Olivia Johnson 19:16

Oh my gosh. If they come out of the woodwork into an occupation where we pretty much are kind of set in what we do and who's there in that in that field, that is a huge red flag. And and you know, you try to tell people and you try to warn them, but again, it's like saying, you know, it's like saying to your best friend, hey, I'm pretty sure that this guy or gal is not good for you. You're the bad guy for a while, right? You're gonna be the bad guy until that breakup happens. It's the same thing. Those are huge red flags, especially when they don't belong there in the first place, or they're not really an expert, or they're not this, or they're not that. And they try to fit in, they're they're like making a puzzle piece for themselves to fit in here, but they don't fit at all. Um, in fact, if you look hard enough, the stuff that they're saying is actually who they really are, and you really need to listen a little bit more, you know, intently to that.

Travis Yates 20:03

And ultimately, yeah, it's a power grab, yeah, it's their thieves and this and this and that. But ultimately, I think their personality is they can't do anything on their own. They probably lack themselves. Yes. What's your talking?

Encouragement, Due Diligence, Next Steps

Dr. Olivia Johnson 20:17

Yes. Oh my God. No, you're so true. I'll tell you, I've had several marketing places that have actually stolen my, like I said before, one of my uh individual, one of the individuals is now passed, but they stole my clip art. Listen, if you're in the marketing realm or you consider yourself to be an expert in that realm and you're taking my stuff, then obviously maybe you should hire me instead. I don't know. But here's a thought maybe you shouldn't be in marketing. Um, you know, it's it's those kind of pieces that when they don't fit and you're kind of sitting back going, like, what is going on here? I don't quite understand. You know, um, it comes out of nowhere though. I'm gonna tell you, you might be sitting right now going, um, like Travis said a second ago, this isn't gonna happen to me. I'm too smart for this. This isn't gonna happen to me. I'm telling you, every day in America, this is happening to people that we think we're we're intelligent. We're not the, we're not the um older, you know, uh individual who got caught up in a love scam, somebody, you know, sending them thousands of dollars of our investments. This is stuff that's happening right now where they're and listen, they don't have to take anything. What they have to do is infiltrate where you're at, learn what you're doing, right? It's just like the it's like gangs coming into the military. They don't come in because they want to reform themselves, they come in to get our tactics. So what they're doing is they're learning how to infiltrate and they go at the weakest link and they're everywhere. They're everywhere because we can let our guard down in one conversation and say things we probably shouldn't say to people that we don't know that aren't part of this group. And the next thing you know, they've infiltrated us, and then everyone else has given them a free pass because you've given them the smell test and you tell everybody it's okay, let them in.

Travis Yates 21:48

Yeah, you wrote something in this article, and I'm gonna I'm gonna bring this thing to an end because we could talk about this all day. But you said these counterfeits are snowflakes, and they have they have an exaggerated sense of uniqueness, inflated easy. Sense of entitlement. They're overly emotional, and they obviously can't handle other opinions, but prone to dramatic meltdowns. I've actually personally seen that. That is if you countered that. I mean, I had one guy almost start crying and screaming at the same time, like a weird emotional reaction when I called him out on his bullshit, to be honest with you.

Dr. Olivia Johnson 22:20

Yeah.

Travis Yates 22:20

So uh you wrote that for a reason, didn't you? I mean, obviously, I did write that for a reason. Yeah.

Dr. Olivia Johnson 22:25

Yeah. And you know, I wish they I wish they melted and went away as fast as they get here, but the truth is they are. They uh uh, you know, a lot of people talk about these things, but the truth is they need to take a look in the mirror because that that entitlement piece is really a big part of this narcissistic piece, which they think that that it's that it's they're entitled they're entitled to this thing, they're entitled to be here, they're entitled to hold this position or this rank or whatever it is. This entitlement piece is a big piece of this. And when they don't get what they want, it's almost like a toddler having a fit, right? They go on and they they go on to social media, you might see them out there, you know, going in the go into some of the chat rooms, go into some of the context where there's comments, and you'll see when they don't get their way, what happens? They go off. Um, it it's it's actually very problematic. But again, it's that entitlement piece. They, they, you know, they they think that things are are theirs and they can take what they want, they can steal what they want, they can do with it what they want. Um, it's that piece of it that's really problematic. And I've seen it personally myself. I'm actually dealing with something like that currently, and it's very frustrating because you feel like you've done the right things, you've tried to protect it, and these are the kind of people that believe that they can do whatever they want, and they do make no mind of it. They do. And the other, like I said, and the other sheepdogs that sit quietly beside it, you know, knowing that it's happened. Those are the ones that I question. You know, what are you know, what are you here for? What are you doing?

Travis Yates 23:45

That's what's so frustrating, Olivia, because I mean, you can protect yourself all you want, you can trademark out trademark logos, you can trademark uh words, you can you can do all the legal things, and they just have this attitude that none of that pertains to the right.

Dr. Olivia Johnson 24:02

Yeah, and when it's you know, and it and you know, you can't go too too crazy on the story, but I gotta tell you, when you see people in the positions and the things that they say that they do uh for work, you have to question, can't you make your own? Can't you do your own thing? You know, like um when I was in the military, I had this this this lady that every time I got my hair done, she would come and get she would get her hair done just like me. It was really creepy, honestly. I gotta be honest with you, it's really creepy. And and you know, it's supposed to be this idea that if they copy you, you know, it's the biggest form of flattery. Well, it's not, it's frustrating, and it actually puts you in a position where you're actually fighting against the things that are yours and trying to keep them yours. Um, it's all a piece of this pie, right? It's these people that are counterfeits, they wanna be. And and the truth is they wanna be, but they're never gonna be because they don't possess, even at their core, the integrity they need to have to be a sheepdog. So all they're gonna be is looks, and eventually that will leave too, just like the snowflake.

Travis Yates 24:56

So let's end this, Olivia. Give some encouragement for our shepherds and sheepdogs to stay focused. I mean, what give them some encouragement as we leave out here? It's it's been a heavy, it's been a heavy podcast. I mean, we've talked about some things that people don't like to think about because they don't want to think that they can be victimized by this, but they play a strong role uh as they move forward and as we move forward. So give them some encouragement as we kind of get you out of here.

Contact Info & Closing

Dr. Olivia Johnson 25:19

Yeah. No, I mean, I'm listening I'm a Christian, so uh I read my Bible, I try to stay focused on things, I try to, you know, figure out what's truly important. And, you know, just don't get distracted. Listen to your gut. If something doesn't feel right, you don't have to go with everybody else because somebody, you know, because they like somebody or they like something that they're doing. You know, be yourself, be authentic, and you don't have to buy into all of that stuff. You can also do your own due diligence and actually look into things a little bit more, do a little bit more research on people. You know, I always say if you if you got a hunch about something, it doesn't feel right, do a background check like you would do if they were dating your daughter. You know, like like not just a smell test, but really dig in for a minute and take some time to really see what's going on because more than likely you are you're right. You just don't know it yet. Um, and listen, everybody gets duped and those things do happen. If it happens, listen, learn your lesson, do a little bit more work on the other end and and be prepared the next time so that when you know when you meet somebody new or you get into a new relationship or whatever, that you're prepared this time.

Travis Yates 26:18

And I would say if you're a law enforcement leader out there and maybe you you know you're making decisions on if we run your department, uh, don't just look at the fancy Lincoln Post. Right. Click a couple more times. What have they written? Are there any videos of them speaking? What are people, you know, just right do five minutes of due diligence. Uh, because man, I tell you, if you just looked at the Lincoln Post and looked at the the the marketing facade they put up front, uh, there's a lot of them out there when you start to understand this. So, man, literally, I can't thank you enough for being here. How can people reach out to you? Obviously, you're at the Blue Wall Institute, you're at Sheep Shep Shepherds and Sheepdogs. How can they reach out to you?

Dr. Olivia Johnson 26:54

Yeah, so they can go to they can just Google Blue Wall Institute or Shepherds and Sheepdogs. Uh, my email is olivia at bw-institute.com. Um, you know, feel free to send me uh, you know, comments, questions, whatever. Um, you know, we'll get back to you for sure.

Travis Yates 27:10

Dr. Olivia Johnson, thanks so much for being here. And if you've been watching and you've been listening, thank you. We'll see you next time. Just remember, lead on and stay courageous.

Announcement 27:21

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