Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates
Courageous Leadership with Dr. Travis Yates Podcast examines what it means to be a Courageous Police Leader. Join us weekly as the concepts of Courageous Leadership are detailed along with interviews with influencers that are committed to leading with courage. You can find out more about Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates at: www.TravisYates.org
Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates
They Fought the DOJ and Won: The Untold Story of the Phoenix Police Department
Darrell Kriplean from the Phoenix Law Enforcement Officers Association reveals how his department successfully challenged the Department of Justice's pattern-or-practice investigation, resulting in a nationwide halt to consent decrees.
• Phoenix police faced a three-year DOJ investigation despite promises of collaboration
• City officials requested evidence behind DOJ allegations, which the federal agency repeatedly refused to provide
• Department created a public website comparing DOJ claims with actual body camera footage and reports
• Independent analysis found 97% of DOJ claims were misleading or false
• New legislation proposed to shift police accountability from the federal to the state level
• State-based oversight would standardize training, policies, and create more localized accountability
• A small group of Phoenix officers helped inspire other departments, like Memphis, to question DOJ tactics
Visit savephx.org to read the full report comparing DOJ claims with actual evidence, and savephx.com to see the messaging directed at city officials during this process.
Additional Articles:
DOJ Nixes Phoenix Investigation After Misleading Report
Join Our Tribe of Courageous Leaders:
Get The Book
Get Weekly Articles by Travis Yates
Join Us At Our Website
Get Our 'Courageous Leadership' Training
Join The Courageous Police Leadership Alliance
Welcome back to the show I'm. There's a long, protracted fight that was before that. That was not just some decision that was made because a presidential administration came in and I have the man on the show today. That was the muscle, so to speak, behind so much of that. There's been a lot of great men and women, courageous leaders, involved in this fight. I had the honor of being invited to this fight about 18 months ago and we're going to have a discussion on how we got here today, and so thank you for joining us. You got to tune in on this one, you got to pay attention, you got to send it to others. Spread this message.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates, where leaders find the insights, advice and encouragement they need to lead courageously.
Travis Yates:Daryl Kriplen with the Phoenix Law Enforcement Officers Association. How are you doing, man?
Darrell Kriplean:That's a good day. I've had a lot worse days. I'll tell you that.
Travis Yates:Well, you're in the middle of the fight there in Phoenix and I'm not going to take the time to give people the background on consent decrees. If they've been listening to this show at all, they know what that is and I would encourage them. If you don't know, go back a few episodes, listen to me discuss this. I've discussed this in Phoenix before. I've had Bob Scales on before.
Travis Yates:We've written tons of articles on this, so we don't want to waste time on the background of consent decrees other than the fact that they have destroyed cities for the last three decades. And they came to your city, daryl, you're the union representative there. They came to your city years ago and they began an investigation and I'm just going to kind of give before to you from those early days and lead us all the way up and and because I want to really get in the details of how you were able to fight this and how this looks like it turned into a nationwide fight that is, for the moment, looks like a resounding victory. So tell us about when the DLJ visited Phoenix.
Darrell Kriplean:You know, when they first came to town, travis, you know they harped on the fact that they were going to be collaborative with the labor organization. They were going to be collaborative with the department and work through all of this. And I can tell you that through this almost three, a little over three year investigation, they were nothing but not collaborative. I mean, it was an absolute atrocity they were doing. You know, the department was providing tens of thousands of documents, tens of thousands of hours of body cam footage. If they felt that they came across something, or at least in my opinion, if they came across something that was so horrible that we were doing something so wrong or unconstitutional, wouldn't you want to bring that to the attention of the leaders so that that could be addressed immediately? But none of that ever happened, none of it. And it was just. And they, they cut the union out, they cut they cut everybody out.
Travis Yates:And meanwhile your city spent over 10 million dollars helping them investigate the phoenix police fire, which is a whole nother stock, those stocksville syndrome.
Darrell Kriplean:But I can't even describe right on why a city would do that yeah, they've been over backwards to appease these folks in the hopes I think, probably because they thought that if they were cooperative, that they would go lenient on them and treat them differently than every other department that they've investigated.
Travis Yates:Well, yeah, and, darrell, when you came to this, I know, when we first talked almost two years ago now, you had a really good beat on the history of this. I mean you were calling me about the history, but you really knew the history. And the history is what you said. They're not collaborative, they're not very factual, they're not very truthful, they don't really show evidence. They just sort of twist the arm of the agency to get them to comply. Now, the reason they have to do that is hopefully everybody knows, there's this little thing called the 10th Amendment, where the federal government cannot control a local entity but unless they get the local entity to just agree, so for 30 years that's what happened and so you knew that. Going into this, and what were some of the things you did during this investigation to sort of prep your community, prep your city leaders to at least ask a few questions, because in so many of these cities they don't even ask questions, they just agree with whatever the DOJ says.
Darrell Kriplean:Yeah, it's mind-boggling how people do that, but you know. So what we did was we compiled a bunch of information that showed the history of these unsuccessful endeavors with the Department of Justice, and we took the hard facts and we went to all of the city council people. We went to the community. We brought Bob Scales down to educate and host town halls, and that effort led to our city council going hold. On a second, you want us to agree to something without even looking at it first? That's, that's mind boggling to them. So at least we had the majority of folks to include our mayor and to her credit, you know, being on the Democratic side, she. She pushed back and it didn't make sense to her. So kudos to her side. She pushed back and it didn't make sense to her, so kudos to her. But we were able to get the council to hold fast.
Darrell Kriplean:And what I think the DOJ misunderstood, or at least misinterpreted, was how our city government was set up or a city manager council set up.
Darrell Kriplean:In a lot of these previous cities, the city, the Department of Justice, was able to go in and brawl beat one individual that typically was the mayor and typically a Democrat, and in our case the mayor's one vote of nine, so they had to get a majority. And you know I can't remember the fellow's name, but we were at a NAPO conference a couple of years ago where he was talking about consent decrees. He was the number two under Kristen Clark, and I stood up and challenged him on what he was saying and at a break he came over and talked to me. I go look, I've had a head start on you. You don't understand, You're misunderstanding how Phoenix is set up and we're not going to just bend over and let you bring this to our city without a fight. And he seemed genuinely shocked by that fact, Because they've never had anybody push back against them before they were. You know, they're the big. They're the big machine that goes in and just steamrolls people. Well, that wasn't happening in Phoenix. I had anything to say about it.
Travis Yates:Well, it's pretty historic, darrell. I don't write history books, but if I could I would write this down and let people never forget that. You know, people need to remember, man, when we say destroy cities, we say literally destroy cities. You will not vacation in any city that has done this Seattle, portland, detroit, chicago, I could go on and on New Orleans. You're scared to go to those cities for a reason.
Travis Yates:The Department of Justice has been running those cities for years, if not decades. You knew this, you saw this. It would have been easy just to lay down, but, man, you put together a coalition of men and women very courageously, because what I know you haven't said, and I'll just say it there were internal people inside the police department, there were internal city council members that wanted this, and we see this all over the place, right? That's why I think the DOJ typically picks cities with Democratic-run councils or Democrats as mayors, because it's very political. I mean, I can't think of one Republican-run city that's agreed to this, because they just. No one would agree to this without seeing evidence, right? So at least that work. You've got to give them some credit, though, because at least they asked DLJ this twice over the course of a year. This is because of all the work you and your men and women did twice over the course of a year. This is because of all the work you and your men and women did.
Travis Yates:Okay, because what DOJ does just so our audience knows, is they'll do the investigation. Then they'll come to the city leaders, which, in your place, with the city council, and say, hey, what we found was bad, we can help correct this. We can support you in this Sign here, sign for this consent decree, and pretty much every city for 30 years did it. But what your leaders did, daryl, is they did something not even controversial or really courageous. They just said, okay, we'd love to take a look at it. Can you show us the evidence? Show us the report? And the DOJ refused twice. That tells you everything you need to know, does it not?
Darrell Kriplean:Right. They were trying to make a responsible decision, knowing full well that this was going to leave a huge or be you know kudos to them. And I tell you there were some internal folks that were working in our continuous improvement unit that really put their careers on the line to get me the information that I needed to be able to educate these council members and this community, because without that this would have been dead in the water. We would have already been probably 12 months into a consent decree.
Travis Yates:Well, there's a lot of work to be done, but I think today you should take a victory lap, and I'll be able to tell the full story soon. But let me tell you something. When we talk about courageous leadership, there was a handful of people not of high ranking at all, some detectives and officers and some below level people that literally put their career on the line to do the right thing, as you said, darrell. And now, as a nation, these have been eliminated for now, and, of course, you're working towards eliminating them for good. And I'm telling you right now, you can tie every bit of that back to the work of a handful of people. When I talk about the power of one of my classes, this is what I'm talking about.
Travis Yates:A small group of men and women in the Phoenix Police Department is the reason today, consent decrees have been eliminated across this country, and the reason why there is legislation and a push to give an alternative form of that, which we'll get to in a minute. People want to jump up and take credit for that, but guess what? I've never seen a police chief, a sheriff, a police organization state anything that we've said up until now. Oh, they're all on the bandwagon now, darrelll, you get everybody online now taking credit for this or that politicians, but none of them were saying any of this over the course of this investigation or before. In fact, many people listening to this are members of IACP or the FOP or PERF or whatever else. Where have they stood on this issue? You've never heard a word. And so it took just a handful of people in your agency, darrell, to bring a halt to this, and I'm telling you right now. That's a story that is worth telling and we will be able to give specific details when the time comes, but you're at the center of this and that's where we stand today.
Travis Yates:And so you educated your leaders and they just simply asked the DOJ to show them the evidence, and, of course, the dlj said no. Then the pressure came. They released the summary report 132 incidents and if all you read was a summary report, you would have thought that the phoenix police department is training white supremacists around the country to take over small pockets of groups of people, and it literally. When you read the report from DLJ, it is so insane what they wrote about your agency and how they wrote it, because, folks, they didn't give details. By the way, this is a public document. The head of the civil rights division read this document live across the world and I can't put my mind in her mind, but I think they were. My opinion is is they were probably irritated that they got pushback from you.
Darrell Kriplean:Oh they were absolutely irritated they decided they wrote that findings report. They probably I would surmise that they rewrote it after they had so much pushback to make it even more salacious against these council members who were pushing back.
Travis Yates:They were trying to ruin them in the political realm, and so this report was obviously one of the most damning things you could ever read. The media took it and used it and just kept battering you guys and battering you guys and, of course, the hope is that your city would just give in, like that would make it stop Right. And when you read the report, when I read the report, obviously something smelled. Daryl. What smelled to you when you read what the DOJ wrote?
Darrell Kriplean:Well, I was immediately offended by it because I've been a member of this department for 30 plus years, you know none of it rang true. There was no way any of that. What was in that report was even close to being accurate and it just needed to be vetted out and shown. But they were all about the show, right? They didn't expect someone to go and fact check you know the DOJ?
Travis Yates:Well, yeah, I mean because, Daryl, put yourself in their shoes. They've done this. They've put 41 departments under consent decrees in 30 years. They've never had anyone question this little summary report they put out to make the department look bad. But your department, I know, with a lot of support from you and your team, your department did something pretty amazing. Kind of talk about that.
Darrell Kriplean:Well, so what they did was and it's still I'm still shocked to this day that they had the intestinal fortitude to do it. But they took each of the incidents within the findings report and without any help from the DOJ, because God forbid they would want anybody to actually fact check them. They were able to pull all of the incident reports, the internal affairs reports, the body cam footage, you know anything attached to whatever incident that was listed in that report, and we put it online for the world to see and that way our community and anybody who questioned that DOJ report could go and get the facts right there in plain sight, yeah, and the way the DOJ wrote the report.
Travis Yates:They never dreamed that anyone would get to see behind the curtain of what they looked at. And, by the way, I want to give credit to you, when you read the DOJ summary report, you don't know the dates and times and specifics about these cases. If people aren't familiar with it and I'll put links here in the show notes is that we'll basically say something like the Phoenix police responded to a person with a behavior crisis and they tased them and it was unconstitutional.
Speaker 2:Literally. That's kind of how they wrote this thing, Ten years.
Travis Yates:Yeah, and it's over the course of six years. You guys responded to five million calls. You made 300,000 arrests approximately. Your team went out somehow and you were able to identify these cases. You actually identified 120 of the 132 cases specifically, and then you put up a public website that's still out there with what the DOJ said on one side and on the other side, the same incident videos and all the reports. And for the first time in 30 years and I believe that's why it fell today, daryl for the first time in 30 years, the public and the politicians and people like me and you can now see exactly what they did. And that is really incredible.
Travis Yates:And I took it upon myself when this came out because I knew something wasn't right, not just in Phoenix, but elsewhere, because if you're a critical thinker, you know something's not right when you read these reports, because they've never had to show them for evidence in court. And I spent a long time I won't go into the details, but I went through every single incident and I compared it to what the DOJ said and, of course, it's been some of the headlines up to now. I found 97% of the time the DOJ deceived, lied, a bunch of other things to make you guys sound like something you weren't 97% of the time. There were only four cases out of 120 that the DLJ's narrative was accurate compared to the videos and this isn't me, it's not some opinion. You can go right now to the same website and you can see it for yourself.
Travis Yates:In fact, it doesn't even take some expert to see it. A college kid or a high school kid could read what the deal jay said, which puts, which ingrains in your mind how bad this is. But then when you go watch the video you go. Did I just read that? Because I mean, there were some cases, daryl, where I thought I was on the wrong case. I'm like, wait, this is u02. Am I watching u02? This doesn't even look the same to me and it's just horrific what they did just, it's just blatant deception.
Darrell Kriplean:Yeah, how that's even acceptable in this day and age is beyond me.
Travis Yates:Well, I think they and we're going to link up all these reports. I'm going to link up the actual research report that I did and Dr Shea did. I mean it's a long report but, man, if you want to know about this, you should really digest this Because, honestly, let's just take what we know out of it. Daryl, the DLJ is one of the most powerful entities in the land. If they can come into Phoenix and lie about you 97% of the time, what could they do to anybody else? What have they done to everybody else? What have they done to other agencies? I mean, there's agencies that's been under their thumb for decades. What have they done there? Because those agencies didn't do what you did. It's really horrific, it's really scary, and I'm hoping that this pretty much puts an end to it for good. We know it's ended today, but that's not good enough, is it, Daryl?
Darrell Kriplean:It is not. So I mean, anytime the White House changes, we could be back in this same boat. So you know, we're working on some legislation where we would refocus the DOJ from local police departments and put this in an arena where you know you have local folks from the state that, would you know, investigate our police departments. If there's an issue, state folks would investigate them. I mean, I think even if you've got a state that's rogue and super far left, I think you would still get a better shake. I think, even if you've got a state that's rogue and super far left, I think you would still get a better shake, a fairer shake, than you would with any DOJ.
Travis Yates:Well, the DOJ and the federal government's lost all rights to investigate local law enforcement. You can't make that argument, darrell. If your officers lied 10% of the time and put somebody in jail, they'd be prosecuted. You don't get to lie in a supposed investigative report 97% of the time and get a redo, get a reshape and a revamp, so that's over with. The other issue is the 10th Amendment prohibits them from doing this. So there's no sense that the federal government should be involved in local law enforcement. Thirdly, if we care about police accountability, daryl and you and I do, we all do and you care about making sure people's rights are not violated, why would you want the DOJ in Washington DC thinking they know what any local agency around the country is doing? Because in 30 years they have done this to 41 police departments in 30 years. Now, okay, you could say that's police accountability, but that's not really police accountability. What would be police accountability would be is you take that same authority, you give it to each state attorney general, right, and they look at the departments in their state. That's more localized and you have more departments are going to be subject to that, and so, because the truth is the DOJ involved, they're never coming to you know Republican administration in Indiana or Colorado, or they pick and choose for a reason. We don't know why they picked Phoenix. It was probably just a big city run by Democrats and they thought let's get it right. They did the same thing in Detroit and New Orleans and Seattle and Portland and Chicago, so those are easy pickings for them. There's no rhyme or reason because there's 18,000 police departments in this country.
Travis Yates:But if you empower the states to do the same thing, to just be a monitor and look out for local agencies and, by the way, they ought to be doing that anyway, right, the state attorney generals and the state should be doing that anyway. But the federal government can take those resources, those 33 attorneys and all the money that's spent there. They can send those funding to the states and let each state run the local law enforcement that's constitutional. We're in a day and age now where everybody talks about threat to democracy. Well, guess what? The federal government running a local entity is actually a threat to democracy, and so put it back at the state level. Darrell, give us some more specifics, because you actually not only do you have a plan, you've met with legislators, you've developed a bill. This is ready to go. Let's talk about some of those details.
Darrell Kriplean:Well, so it would basically divest the DOJ from local law enforcement right and refocus them on federal law enforcement agencies that currently don't have any oversight, if you can believe that, and empowering the state, the top law enforcement officer of the state, the attorney general, to oversee a new division of each state's post. For so there's peace officer standards and training for in each state, and you add an entity to that where they're part of police oversight, police oversight standards and training, and you make it so that if there is a complaint right, that it would go to that board to investigate, rather than the department of justice. Now, the department of justice would always retain the right to you know if they believe that an individual had violated someone's constitutional rights, they could, you know, proceed and prosecute that individual criminally. But for these civil, for these civil investigations of police departments, the peace officers or the police oversight standards and training division would oversee those and investigate those and determine then whether there's, you know, cause for an injunction or some sort of consent decree at the state level right.
Darrell Kriplean:But in addition to that, you know, we want to standardize training, we want to standardize policy because, as it is now, obviously each department has their own use of force policy. They have their own policy on how they drive. Why not standardize all of that so that way you can go as an officer? You can go to any city in that state and you know what the rules of engagement are. You know what you have to abide by, right, because it's not independent to each city. I think that's a better way to oversee police and I believe you get a better product and more oversight with that model versus the model that we have now.
Travis Yates:Well, the reason it's better. First of all, let me back up a little bit. Okay, we talked about the faulty investigations. Let's talk about the reforms. None of the reforms that ELJ has ever implemented has made things better. They've made things worse. They've made crime worse. They've made budgets worse. They've made staffing worse and, more importantly, the very metrics that they said they were going to fix usually get worse. Albuquerque is a prime example.
Travis Yates:They came to Albuquerque 10 years ago that's right down the road from you, daryl. Of course, nobody's going to Albuquerque right now because their crime's out of control. They've had about a 65% increase in violent crime since the DOJ came. But let's just look at the metrics. The DOJ came to Albuquerque because in the previous three years they had had 20 deadly force shootings, and just because of that the DOJ has got to come to town. Now, obviously, all of those shootings were justified, but it doesn't matter. That's too many according to this DOJ pattern and practice rhetoric. So after 10 years they just cleared Albuquerque because of a presidential administration. They said you're 99% compliant, you're really good now. This is a great success. Guess how many students they had in the last three years. It wasn't 20, it was 30, but it was a success and so of course we know it's 30, because violent crime dramatically increased during the dlj's tenure.
Travis Yates:So even the reforms they claim they're there to fix, they don't fix, and so anyone that's familiar with dlj and federal government and especially law enforcement, they understand that. But the general citizens this is like you said, this is theater, this is art. They make this sound so horrendous and that we're here to save the day and kind of like the words of Ronald Reagan, right, the two most dangerous words, whatever to you, for we're from the government, we're here to help, right. So yeah, but I love your state plan, daryl, and your group's plan, because the states already do that. We have standardized training now in each state, right. So why not take that to the next step and give standardized policies and procedures? And then every department knows what the rules are. That's one of the things with DOJ pattern and practice investigations. They don't tell you what that means, meaning they can pick any department they want and go after them, which is they would say. Here's what this means. You know, I'm making this up. If 30% of your shootings are outside of policy, then that's going to trigger us to come investigate. They don't say any of that. They just they just leave it vague and then just show up to wherever they want to show up, and so these states really have an opportunity.
Travis Yates:Darrell, what's your chance of this? Because this makes total sense. I think we can all agree it can't stay at the federal government and I think we can all agree that we still want an accountability arm for local law enforcement. But obviously this is politics right, and you've got different people and players and power and money. There's a lot of money that goes around with these DLJ things. Federal consent decree monitors make on average a million dollars a year and most cities are spending over $10 million a year that are trying to comply this kind of removes that. So there's going to be a lot of people upset by this because they're not really in it for accountability or law enforcement. They're in it for the Benjamins, so to speak. But you're talking to a lot of people. You were in DC last week. Tell us about navigating this and what do you think the odds are.
Darrell Kriplean:Well, I'm optimistic by nature. So I think that you know, with the conversations that we've had so far on the federal level, I think there's some interest. And I think it's from both sides of the aisle, you know, because with the Democrats they want to make sure that you have oversight and this increases that oversight piece. But the Republicans they want big government out of you know local issues, right. So, and I just you know, we've talked, I've talked to some local state legislators. They were meeting next week with them. I think at the same time we're doing this on the federal level, speak with them. I think, at the same time we're doing this on the federal level, I think we're going to start pushing on the local level, the state level here in Arizona, so that we're running this simultaneously. There's already states out there that have proven concept that Colorado, california. They already have these programs set up. There's no reason why Arizona can't follow suit and start doing this on a statewide level while we're working on the feds.
Travis Yates:Well, and the 10th Amendment is so strong. We all know that State legislators can actually pass a law that prohibits the DLJ getting involved in local law enforcement, and it falls right there at the state level. So I think that's a great plan that you're going to hit this from a federal government level. You'd love this legislation to come out of that, because these consent decrees come from legislation DLJ. This comes from the 94 crime bill. That needs to be eliminated, right, but then at the same time, you present this to all the states to try to do the same thing, and so we need a lot of men and women that have been silent on the sidelines to start speaking up. I've been amazed how silent people have been about this, even when I post this. Nobody wants to talk about this. I don't know what people are scared of, but truth matters and, daryl, I just want to. I want to tell you I'm just so impressed by what you did there. I mean, whether people know it or not, we're in a historic time period in law enforcement. We may be able to look back at this time period and know how much infinitely better the profession is and the men and women are because of the actions of you and a small group of men and women around you.
Travis Yates:What made Phoenix so different and a small group of men and women around you? What made Phoenix so different? Why was it Phoenix, arizona? Because, by the way, people don't know this, you guys, while this was going on, other agencies were encouraged by you. Memphis held off, louisville started questioning right, and there's probably even more I don't know about. So a lot of people saw what you were doing and we like to follow the leader. You were the leader and a lot of encourage saw what you were doing and we'd like to follow the leader. You were the leader and a lot of encourage is contagious and they sort of followed your lead and started making and started questioning themselves. What made your agency and your people and your association different than everybody else?
Darrell Kriplean:Well, I don't know that we're different from anybody else. I think I just got to a point where I just wouldn't accept the fact that this came out like that. The way that findings report came out, it was so scandalous. It made us seem like we were the worst police department, like you said, like we were training, you know, white supremacists to go out and I have a lot of pride in this department and I know that that wasn't our department and I think they attacked the wrong city, the wrong department, with the right people in place.
Darrell Kriplean:We were able to show and demonstrate to all these other groups that you know you weren't going to lose your birth date. You weren't going to. You know nobody was going to show up in a white van and kidnap you and you know, you know, take you to Guantanamo Bay. You can stand up to the DOJ and you know, unless they've got proof which they never do, they're not taking you to court. You just need to be resilient and weather the storm while it's going on, but it's a heck of a storm, I'll tell you.
Travis Yates:Well, it's an incredible story and I want to encourage everybody listening to this. First off, you can read the entire report at savephxorg. Then, if you want to read some of the messaging and the media stuff that was being pushed to your counselors, you can go to savephxcom. But in the show notes we're going to put a bunch of links up. I think when you read what they did here, you will be outraged as well. Daryl and I are not just showing off here. It is one of the most scandalous, outrageous things I've ever seen. It was done by one of the most powerful entities in this land and they got away with it for a very long time. They've ruined a lot of lives.
Travis Yates:Roland fryer, harvard professor, did a peer-reviewed research. He documented how there have been more murders because of what these things have done and of course, of course anecdotally. You know that if you've been paying attention to the cities I've mentioned and, darrell man, the city of Phoenix and your officers, they owe you a debt. I know that you're a humble guy and you're not by any means, you know, making a bow or anything, but I want to make sure people always remember this time in our history. It started in Phoenix, arizona. I can't thank you enough for being here. Thank you so much.
Darrell Kriplean:I appreciate everything you've done to help us with this Travis. Your guidance and everybody around you has been instrumental in this win. I can't thank you enough. I appreciate you.
Travis Yates:Thank you, Darrell. Thank you so much If you've been watching and you've been listening. Thank you, Take this one serious. Read what is here. Spread the message. Thanks for coming back and visiting us. We'll be back soon. And just remember, lead on and stay courageous.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates. We invite you to join other courageous leaders at TravisYatesorg.
