Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates
Courageous Leadership with Dr. Travis Yates Podcast examines what it means to be a Courageous Police Leader. Join us weekly as the concepts of Courageous Leadership are detailed along with interviews with influencers that are committed to leading with courage. You can find out more about Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates at: www.TravisYates.org
Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates
The Evolution of Leadership with Eugene Roy
Eugene Roy shares a wealth of experience and insights on the transformation of leadership in law enforcement. He delves into how generational shifts have affected policing and the importance of mental health for officers.
• Discussion of the evolution of policing from the 1990s to today
• Insights into the challenges faced by modern police leaders
• The importance of mental health support for officers
• Communication barriers and the impact on public perception
• The potential for a return to mission-driven policing
• Reflections on the necessary qualities of courageous leadership
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Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates, where leaders find the insights, advice and encouragement they need to lead courageously.
Travis Yates:Welcome back to the show. I'm so honored to have you with us today and I am excited about today's guest. Today's guest is Eugene Roy. He's a retired chief of detectives for the Chicago Police Department, where he led over 1,200 detectives With over 35 years of law enforcement experience that ranges from writing citations to solving murders, to even leading police operations for professional sports. He's positioned himself to be a leading expert and consultant for agencies and various industries across the world. We're really excited to have him, eugene. How are you doing, sir?
Eugene Roy:I'm doing well. Thanks for the invitation to be here with you and your audience. I really appreciate it.
Travis Yates:Well, no, it's quite an honor because obviously we had a few discussions before this about the state of leadership in law enforcement today, the state of leadership really across industries today, and you have a tremendous amount of experience and I just kind of wanted to pick your brain a little bit of where was the seat change at? Like, I think I go back to 93, to 2023. And so I saw a tremendous shift of how leadership acted, how leadership operated, how leadership practiced, and I would assume you have a similar story. Just kind of talk to our audience about the shift that you saw and why you think that happened.
Eugene Roy:One of the benchmarks I use on that is I use how the police services progress down through the years. And you know, if we look back to the years, what we had we had a police department that was mainly males, an extremely high percentage of veterans who came out of the military, the military out of the 50s and the 60s, people who had served in conflict. I came on the job in 1986 as a sworn member of the Chicago Police Department. I had a sergeant who had served in Korea. You know, 36 years ago I had a partner who was a highly decorated Marine veteran of Vietnam and I think that the police agencies you and I lived in back in those days it had gotten to the point where the people who are supervisors and leaders were military veterans and they grew up in a different school of leadership. And they grew up in a different school of leadership and leadership was mission, mission, mission, regulation, regulation, regulation as our society progressed and as time progressed.
Eugene Roy:You know, those veterans, those people in position of leadership and supervision two different concepts here. They aged out for lack of a better term. Their time was up, they hit that mandatory retirement age and they were gone, and so were their very rigid and very rigid approaches to life, very to life, and to doing policing. Everything was, you know, four square corners and you know things like that. Everything just said had to be perfect. We focused more on appearance. We've, then, taking care of our people. We've been taking care of our people.
Eugene Roy:So I would agree with your timeline right around the 80s, late 80s, early 90s, and at the same time there was under the Clinton administration, there was the COPS program. They were just literally throwing money at the major cities to hire police officers because again, what we saw is that post-Korean War, post-vietnam War cohort of people who came on police departments after their military service was completed, they were aging out, it was their time to retire. So we had a whole new generation of people I don't know if you call them the generation Xers, not quite the boomers I'm a boomer. I think it was generation X and they had different philosophy, different outlook on things and you couldn't treat them like a recruit in basic training. And that's when I saw that sea change in leadership.
Travis Yates:Yeah, I really see a lot of similarities there and I think you hit on a point that we don't often talk about. Maybe it's not politically correct to talk about it, but I think it's very appropriate. I grew up. My father was a Vietnam vet. He went to law enforcement in 1972. I started law enforcement in 1993, and my sergeant was a Vietnam vet and of course I can remember thinking you got to be kidding me. I grew up with this guy and I got to work for a guy very similar, but we didn't know what we had when we had it.
Travis Yates:Sir, you're right when you say mission oriented. That was what it was about. They didn't let third party entities get in the way of that mission. They didn't let the chief of police get in the way of that mission. It was mission all the time. And I think that's a big reason we saw the dip in crime that we saw in the 90s, because that was very much what law enforcement was doing. It was mission oriented, which is I tell people this all the time our mission's in our name law enforcement.
Travis Yates:It's not a complicated business we're in, but we've made it very complicated. But and I agree with you the people we recruit have changed? There certainly seem to have. Should have been some sort of transition, because I'm a product of that former military sergeant, I'm a product of the people I was around and and I very much am not in mainstream management today. So I think we certainly erred by not transitioning rightly, because we've seen what has occurred right. I don't think we have to reiterate that. You're in chicago, we don't have to go over all the crazy stuff that's going on today. Do you see a time and a place in the future where we sort of get back to that mission?
Eugene Roy:you know, it's a basic law of nature the pendulum swings both ways. I think that things are going to get to a certain point where society just can't tolerate them anymore and somebody is going to wake up and say, oh, this is the way they did it back in the 90s, and you know the turn of the century, you know the millennium, and things have to swing back the other way. We can't continue the way we have been continuing. You know we're making great strides in the way we treat our officers and their families, especially in the aftermath of realize. That causes problems that affect morale, retention, ptsd. So we're making strides there, but we still have to do better. We're policing smarter with the use of technology. We still have, like I said, still have great strides to go with the way we treat our people.
Eugene Roy:You know, going back to that military mission, first mentality, those old bosses your wife could be nine months pregnant and ready to have a baby at any time. You had to come to work. Right, there was no hey, all right, forget about it, stay home. Well, yeah, I mean, I remember a time, not so long ago you were shamed.
Travis Yates:If you took a sick day, you were shamed by your boss.
Eugene Roy:Exactly, exactly, exactly. We've gotten past that. We're still not where we need to be, and there's a lot of other external factors to the political environment, especially.
Travis Yates:Well, and it's very interesting you say that because, yes, a new generation came in, but there's some benefits with that, right. I think we would all agree. Diversity, including females in law enforcement, offers a lot of value that we didn't used to have back in the day. We're much more health conscious to where, when I started, there were cigarette ash trays in the squad rooms right, and we brought the mental health and the professions along with that. So there's been a lot of great strides.
Travis Yates:You mentioned technology. I think there's a danger there. We get over stimulated technology. We use it too much to get away from the common sense of the mission approach. But there is a balance there and there's certainly where I see the new generation is is they want leadership. I don't think that has changed. They want leadership, but they're not seeing leadership. They may be seeing management, they may be seeing micromanagement, they may be seeing, but they're not seeing strong, courageous leadership. And I think that's why you're seeing so many agencies that are really failing when it comes to retention and recruiting, because there's still a huge amount of people that want to work for whatever profession it is. They want to work in leadership circles. But we've got so many examples we could go through where we've seen leaders fail this profession and you know, I know you, sir, I mean you were. I wanted to talk to you briefly about communications because I think we have failed mightily with communications. There's still people today that think hands up don't shoot they still.
Travis Yates:They still think hands up don't shoot happened. They still think Breonna Taylor was sleeping peacefully in her bed. I could go into the examples of Chicago, where they still think this poor, innocent kid didn't have a gun. I mean, our communication has really faltered and created narratives that our leaders have not been able to answer for. But the leaders have the truth. I've never understood why we can't defend the profession when we have the truth and the facts on our side. And you come from a background in media relations and communication. Do you have anything to say about that?
Eugene Roy:You know you have to you. Somebody told me a long time ago, you know, get out in front of the story. You own the story. Tell the truth, get, get the story out there, don't let the story own you. And unfortunately, a lot of our leaders don't have that, haven't been exposed to that sort of savvy, and because how to communicate effectively with the media is not something that we were brought up to do as we rose through the ranks in the police service, because the media was seen as the enemy, everything we did was a secret. We've gone past that, but we still haven't gotten to the point where we value those people who are not afraid to stand in front of a camera and tell the public, tell the municipal, the government leadership what happened, how it happened, why it happened, obviously knowing what to say, how to say it and, more importantly, what not to say at the early stages of an investigation. We don't quite have that yet.
Travis Yates:Yeah, and I think also we have the benefit that we could be our own media, right With technology there and you name it, with what we're doing right now, I mean, everybody can be their own media and we let other people dictate the narrative and it just spirals out of control. We've, of course, seen that since 2016 and on, and I think one thing that has occurred is I think the trust in the media is really at an all-time high, and so think one thing that has occurred is I think the trust in the media is really an all-time high, and so there's an opportunity for leaders to be the mouthpiece People trust you look at the Gallup polling people trust law enforcement at a much higher level than the media, but I don't personally think we're taking advantage of that. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Eugene Roy:Absolutely. You know, you're absolutely right. I had the good fortune of working with a gentleman who's now the director of Anthony Guglielmi, director of media affairs for the US Secret Service. He sought out people in leadership that, he said, you know, he saw where there was a comfort level with speaking publicly and he would train us on how to do things. And one of the things that I'll always remember is one day he calls me and says we need you to be at a press conference on some sort of major crime incident where an arrest was made or something like that, and normally the dress code for members of the command staff appearing at media events like that was the full dress uniform. He said okay, give me about. I need about 10 minutes. Got to switch into my uniform? No, no, no, no, no. I want you in your suit and tie. My uniform no, no, no, no, no. I want you in your suit and tie. I said you want me in my suit and tie, but the dress code? He said let me explain something to you People. You're the chief of detectives.
Eugene Roy:People think of detectives. They think of somebody dressed in a suit, whether it's a man or a woman dressed in a business suit with the tie, who speaks from the heart. That's what they're looking for. They're not looking for somebody in a uniform who's reading a script and lessons learned and it's worked well down through the years. We need that sort of wisdom. We need those sort of leaders to step up, because when they step up excuse me they're not just telling the department story, they're not just reciting facts about an incident. They are serving as the voice of the people. They lead these police officers. They need to be recognized by their own leadership and they need somebody who they know and who they trust and who has the credibility with the media and its stature where they can address those issues and they can tell the policeman's story.
Travis Yates:Yeah, and you mentioned chief of detectives. You had 1,200 detectives. You had 1200 detectives, uh, you know, uh, at your disposal and I, I, I don't think that was probably your goal. I don't think anybody that believes in leadership, that was their goal to do that when they started in that career and so. But you found yourself there and I have to. Just, I'd like to educate our audience a little bit because, uh, that's a tremendous responsibility. You can't control 1,200 people. You can't supervise 1,200 people. How did you deal with your middle management when you were in that role to make sure that they were carrying that mission, focus forward.
Eugene Roy:You have to communicate with people, and it's not formal staff meetings, it's by being out there, showing up at crime scenes, seeing how your mid-level supervisors, your sergeants, your lieutenants, how are they interacting with the troops at a time of great stress and uncertainty, what are they doing right, what are they doing wrong and what do we need to build on?
Eugene Roy:And just being out there, being with these people three o'clock on a Sunday morning or when it's cold or whatever, that's what sets an example and that's how you connect with people. And when they see you showing up and taking an interest in their case or maybe it's not showing up at a crime scene but reading a report and you can see where a sergeant, the lieutenant, did a great job, put together a team to solve a robbery pattern or something along those lines and you call them and say, hey, great report, great job, thank you. They get that and they also learn. The besides thanking them, you're giving them an implicit message learn besides thanking them, you're giving them an implicit message. You're teaching them. Reward your subordinates, Acknowledge your subordinates when they deserve praise. Praise them publicly and loudly.
Travis Yates:Yeah, and consequently, when we need to critique, you do that privately, and you mentioned something that I think is a lost art. It seems crazy to say this, but I'm seeing this pesky email taking over for that in-person communication. There's nothing that replaces the fact of our leaders that get out of the office, see people face to face, whatever position you're in. If you're a sergeant, jump in a car with a patrolman. If you're the chief of detectives, get out to crime scenes and hang out with them, because you're not going to hear anything other than that.
Travis Yates:We always talk about this, eugene, about oh, we have an open door policy, well, no one's coming to your door. You've got to build trust by going to them and trusting them and letting them see you on a day-to-day basis. And then, because you're going to go to their door and so that's really sort of a checkbox, everybody says, oh well, I have an open door policy, well, it doesn't matter, you need to go to their door, break open their door, make available. Now, that takes work. It's much easier to sit behind a keyboard right and send out emails, but there is literally nothing that takes the place of being there. So that's really really solid advice. You were in Chicago obviously hyperpolitical. Now Did you see it shift at a certain time in your career to where you were mission focused and then politics took over and then everything else became more important than the mission? Because I think everybody understands the issues in Chicago today, but it wasn't always the case, was it?
Eugene Roy:No, it wasn't always the case, but as the mood in the country shifted, became more sensitive. Also, you know just the fact of where you are in the police organization affects how you are involved in politics, and there's capital P politics and there's small p politics. And as you climb the ranks it's more about. You know you've mastered your basic skills. You know how to conduct an interview. You know what the procedures are for an officer-involved shooting. It's how you communicate. It's how you read the room. One of my favorite phrases read the room you go in. You think you've got a great idea. You see everybody's in a bad mood and the chief is really ticked. Maybe it's not the best day to pitch this proposal. Maybe it's one of those days we just keep quiet and sit in the corner and let the steam blow over and come back another day. You have to do that.
Travis Yates:Oh man, I have story after story of what you just said, like getting a chief to do something you never thought you would do. But if you catch him at the right moment at the right time, he'll do just about anything. You want Pretty brilliant stuff there.
Eugene Roy:And it's not going to get done with an email, it's got to be done in person. That person that you're making a proposal, to, that you're pitching to, they have to see your energy, they have to feel your enthusiasm. If you don't have that energy, that enthusiasm, your project is probably not going to go anywhere.
Travis Yates:So you mentioned earlier the pendulum swinging back. Are you sensing this, especially in our major cities, to where we're kind of getting back to that mission? I have days where I have faith. I have days where I get depressed when I see it, but it really starts with leadership, right, and it starts with leadership that is not scared to make the hard decisions, is not scared to do the right thing. And the reason we see such a lack of it and I call it courageous leadership is because you can hurt yourself by doing the right thing. I know it sounds crazy, but outside law enforcement, by doing the right thing you can destroy your career. So we see so many people that just don't do the right thing. But I'm seeing sort of a hinge towards that. Are you seeing the same thing?
Eugene Roy:Well, first of all, policing doesn't exist in a vacuum. Policing is in the overall environment and obviously politics plays a key role in it. Here in Chicago, one of the big problems we've had is that we had a progressive prosecutor who didn't like to prosecute and we've also had some ill-advised laws. We don't hold people on bond anymore, you know, unless it's something truly horrific that contributed to it. The city, the past two mayors, have been intent on downgrading the police department. The police department is down anywhere from 1,500 to 2,000 officers net over the past five years, depending on whose statistics you believe and rely on. So you have to take that into account and you work from there. And fortunately, some good news you know the progressive state's attorney got voted out of office. You know the progressive state's attorney got voted out of office. We have a former prosecutor who became a judge after leaving the prosecutor's office. She got elected in a prosecutor's office properly, firmly, but fairly, and enforce the law and restore respect for the criminal justice system. So we're seeing that. But again, we're still down 1,500 officers on the police department net loss.
Eugene Roy:We have a relatively new superintendent who is a product of. He came up the hard way, he came up through the ranks and he replaced a gentleman who lived in another city, came from another city and commuted home to his home city every weekend and wasn't there for the big events. So there's a change in the leadership climate there. We still have a lot of problems because of the ill-advised laws passed by the state legislature. We have a serious problem with the way police-involved shootings are handled in Chicago by a civilian agency that is operating in violation of Illinois state law. But the political powers that be at city hall want it to be that way because they maintain political control for their political ambitions. So it's good. I'm like you. There's good days and there's bad days, and most days are a mixture of both.
Travis Yates:Yeah, and really the answer is just leadership, right, just leadership. And the reason I think we saw the success from the military is in the military day one. Every military person I've ever talked to when was the first time leadership was mentioned? And they all say day one, boot camp, day one boot camp.
Travis Yates:Well, in law enforcement, maybe, if you pass a test for four or five years and you make that first rank, they send you to.
Travis Yates:They don't even, fortunately, they don't even call it leadership, they call it management school or supervisor school, right, and so maybe, just maybe, you get a hint of it.
Travis Yates:Then, after you're several years into your career and the next thing you know you've achieved the detectives and you think to yourself man, they have not mentored or trained me at all in these areas. Now we do live. We live in a day and age where this information is accessible, but the great leaders that I've met along my journeys have almost self-taught, and that's why I think it's so important, eugene, that you come on and you talk about this. In fact, I'll just I'll be honest with you, my father I won't ask your age, but my father retired in law enforcement in the late 90s and I tried to get him to come on, because of the wisdom of people that left this profession, that have led at high levels, led during high priority events. I think we're losing that, and so you are still very, very active, you're still very involved and I would only assume it's because of your passion for this profession, your passion for leadership.
Eugene Roy:I love being the police and it's one thing. Once you're the police, if you're truly the police, retirement doesn't make a bit of difference. It just means you're not getting paid but you still think like a cop, you act like a cop, you talk like a cop and you bleed. Your heart bleeds like a cop. So I agree with you there.
Eugene Roy:One of the role models for me was a gentleman who just passed away by the name of Jim Maurer, who was our chief of patrol. He was a larger-than-life character. He was fond of showing up at major events in a full-length dress, coat and carrying a little dog, like Winston Churchill, and puffing on a cigar and just being out there with the troops. A little bit of a showman, but it caught everybody's eye. Everybody knew him. He either loved him or he hated him, but you knew who he was and you knew he was out there. One of the things he said early on that I heard early on in my career is as a supervisor, as a leader, you are responsible for the physical, legal and emotional safety of the people who work for you and never forget, as a sergeant, the last person that patrol officer sees before they walk out the door to hit the street is you. They don't see the district commander. They don't see the superintendent. They don't see the mayor. They don't see the president. It's you, it's on you. You owe that to them.
Travis Yates:Yeah, man, it's solid. You mentioned something that is so important. You know, this is a profession of identity. You know, I think people that have been in this profession, that do this profession, that love this profession it's not a typical career. You very much have an identity with it, which is why you're so active. It's why I'm so active long after the job. That's very unique. With that identity can come negative things. For instance, we love this job, but here is sort of a trick that people don't realize. The job is not required to love you back.
Travis Yates:It's very much a dysfunctional relationship, right, and so almost everybody that loves this job so much will eventually feel the sting of that dysfunctional relationship and and and you, just like me, have been through that sting a few times what piece of advice would you give people listening to this? It's still on the job, they identify with this job, they love this job. Is there any advice, as we sort of you know, as a final question here, that you would give those men and women?
Eugene Roy:Don't forget who you are. Don't forget who you owe your loyalty and allegiance to. Don't become a politician. Remember those brave men and women go out that door every day to confront evil, because you asked them to.
Travis Yates:Powerful stuff. Eugene Roy, I can't thank you enough for being here. I think we could just talk all day, but thanks for giving us your time and thanks for doing what you did and thanks for your service to the city of Chicago and to the world today and what you do now. So thank you so much.
Eugene Roy:Well, thank you. It's an honor to be here with you. Keep up the good work.
Travis Yates:Thank you. Thank you, sir, and if you've been watching, listening, thank you for doing that. And just remember, lead on and stay courageous.
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