Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates
Courageous Leadership with Dr. Travis Yates Podcast examines what it means to be a Courageous Police Leader. Join us weekly as the concepts of Courageous Leadership are detailed along with interviews with influencers that are committed to leading with courage. You can find out more about Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates at: www.TravisYates.org
Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates
Transforming Law Enforcement Culture with Chief Deputy Matt Thomas
Join us for a compelling conversation with Chief Deputy Matt Thomas, a seasoned law enforcement deputy with a wealth of experience in training, narcotics, and investigations. Discover how a journey that began at the tender age of 20 evolved into a significant leadership role alongside Sheriff Mark Lamb at the Pinal County Sheriff's Office. Tap into Matt's insights on strategic thinking, the emotional shift from frontline operations to executive decision-making, and the vital importance of maintaining a broad perspective in leadership roles.
Peek behind the curtain of the intense and strategic operations against the notorious Sinaloa cartel in Arizona, as chronicled in Matt’s gripping book, "The Interceptors: The Untold Fight Against the Mexican Cartel." Explore the stories of bravery and collaboration among federal, state, and local law enforcement teams that continue to battle powerful criminal organizations. Learn how compassion and holistic leadership from Sheriff Mark Lamb have shaped operations and resonated with Matt's own values, and gain a deeper understanding of the courage required to stand firm for justice within the law enforcement community.
Experience the transformation of organizational culture through trust-building and dedicated investment in personnel. Chief Deputy Thomas shares the challenges and triumphs of fostering an environment of openness, humility, and genuine care within the agency. Discover how prioritizing personal interactions over pre-packaged programs enhances relationships and strengthens connections between law enforcement and the communities they serve. As Matt reflects on the necessity of strong, courageous leadership in today's world, he offers an invitation to connect further and continue the conversation on social media.
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The Sheriff and I both will give credit to our leadership throughout our ranks, and leadership doesn't necessarily mean that they have rank. The leaders throughout this agency made that possible.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates, where leaders find the insights, advice and encouragement they need to lead courageously.
Travis Yates:Welcome back to the show. I'm excited you're here and you're going to be excited. You're here because today we've been trying to get him here. It's the man, the myth, the legend. Chief Deputy Matt Thomas. He has extensive experience in training, narcotics motors and investigations. That includes anti-smuggling. He's the author of the excellent book Interceptors the Untold Fight Against the Mexican Cartel, and he's an instructor at Undercover Operations and Tactics, mexican Cartels and line level to executive level leadership. This is going to be one heck of a conversation, chief Deputy Thomas. How are you doing, sir?
Matt Thomas:I'm doing great Travis. How are you?
Travis Yates:Wonderful man. Wonderful you got a lot of great things going on there and we want to get into all of it because obviously what you and your agency have done is an outlier for sure. We all want to learn from it Before we get there. Just sort of walk us up until the day on how you got started in the career and kind of where that career took you to today.
Matt Thomas:Oh man, took you to today. Oh man, the career has taken me all over the place. I started at the ripe old age of 20 and I had a life choice in front of me. I had a pregnant girlfriend, now wife, of 31 years. Actually, today is one of our anniversaries.
Travis Yates:Awesome man, you'd already hit the big 3-0, but 31 is pretty important.
Matt Thomas:That's right. That's right, um, but so she was pregnant, uh, and we were actually, uh, I was 19 at that time, she was 20. She's a little bit older than me and, uh, at 20 years old, I had a life decision to make. And and, uh, I knew that I wanted to serve in some capacity, whether that be military or here and uh, I jumped in and started applying to several different agencies. Pinnell was the first one to offer me a job and I have been here ever since, started working in our jail first, so I was in detention at that age and then went out to the road as a deputy sheriff and I'm still a deputy sheriff to this day, but my rank has changed several times throughout the years and spent time as a deputy on the street and then I did some traffic stuff, the fatalities, duis, that kind of stuff and then I went into undercover narcotics and from undercover, I promoted the sergeant.
Matt Thomas:I was a sergeant for about 10 years and during that 10 years I did motors, I did traffic again, I did undercover the anti-smuggling stuff and ran our academy and I was a training sergeant and then, in 2010, promoted to lieutenant and as a new lieutenant lieutenant, I was given command of our SWAT team narcotics, anti-smuggling and kind of remained there the entire time up to my promotion here.
Matt Thomas:I did have a small stint where I went back to patrol for a little bit and but then ended up coming back to tactical and then that entire time from a deputy to being in command of the team because it's a collateral duty. I was on our SWAT team as an operator, a team leader, in command of the team because it's a collateral duty. I was on our SWAT team as an operator, a team leader, and then eventually the team commander. And then in 2016, the American Sheriff himself, mark Lamb, won his bid for Sheriff and asked me to step up and be his second in command, and I quickly took him up on that offer. In 2017 on been the Chief Deputy with Sheriff Mark Lamb.
Travis Yates:Well, I know you can look back now with your time with Sheriff Lamb and just you know you can see the dramatic and transformation change in that agency. But I have to think, even though you were probably excited about that effort, the position you were in which is, you know, narcotics and SWAT team and anti, that's a pretty good position as a lieutenant, is it not?
Matt Thomas:it, uh, it was hard to leave. It was very hard to leave because that that was my passion, that was my love and, uh, we were the tip of the spear for what we were doing. So, stepping from that, I can't say it slowed down because it's fast in a different way in this position, but it was an adjustment, because I was a ground pounder I love being out there and you're not a ground pounder as a chief deputy, you are doing a totally different role.
Travis Yates:Well, there's some different emotional intelligence there and I want our audience to understand that. Like we want everybody to go as high as you can because you influence a lot of people, but it is a different style of leadership, so to speak. You have to almost set back right and look at the big picture. Look at it from an umbrella 10,000-yard view of your decision versus that unit supervisor or unit commander that you work. Does it not work that way?
Matt Thomas:Yeah, absolutely. I mean even as a lieutenant, right, you're considered executive staff at that level.
Matt Thomas:I mean even as a lieutenant right, you're considered executive staff at that level, but even as a lieutenant, over those type of units, you still have more of a hand in things than you do in this position. In this position you're just by design. You have to be removed so that you can look at the whole playing field and you can make those decisions from that 30,000 foot view. And of course you have to also project forward, right? So you're looking five, 10 years into the future on some of your decisions and so you really do have to back out of it and you can't be in the day to day.
Travis Yates:Yeah, and many people listening can talk about the horror stories of people that rose to those higher levels but still tried to stay involved in a micromanagement type level. It just doesn't compute. You, as a lieutenant, would expect to get to pick your team. You don't want somebody above you telling you what to do as a lieutenant, so you had to sort of think of it that way.
Matt Thomas:Yeah, and you know obviously you and I have talked before, and I think some of my best learning experiences throughout my career were from some of my worst leadership. Experiences throughout my career were from some of my worst leadership, and I knew as I moved up in rank you know A that I wanted to have more influence so that I could do more good, and I wanted to be able to be a leader that did not fail their people right and that did not fail the agency and did not treat people that way, just did just micromanaging, because I've had those leaders before, and so I understood what that does to a good team. You can just kill a good team and so I knew that some of my best work at all those levels was when they just cut me loose. They give you some direction and they give you some boundaries, and then they let you go. You some direction and they give you some boundaries, and then they let you go. And, man, I loved having that freedom and I gave return on that investment when leaders let me do that, and so I knew that.
Matt Thomas:You know, moving to this level, I have to do the same thing. I trust my people. They have fantastic heads on their shoulders. They have good judgment. I got to let them do what they got to do. And what you find what I have found in doing that and you know the sheriff as well is people, even people that you don't expect to blossom, blossom and they do a fantastic job. And there are some that stumble along the way, but when they have supportive leadership, they just get right back up and they put their big boy pants on and they get with it and they end up being some of your hardest workers.
Travis Yates:Yeah, it's how you treat those stumbles right. Leaders can go two directions. You can treat those stumbles as oh, you're a bad cop, or we're going to discipline you, or we're going to do this.
Matt Thomas:But if you treat those stumbles as a learning tool, it can be pretty powerful for that officer, can it not? Oh, absolutely, and those tend to be the officers that become some of your top performers, because they see that trust from the leadership, they see that support that. Okay, even though I made a mistake and I can tell you we're dealing with one right now that we had to make a call on and it's a call outside of calls we've made like this before, but it was the right call to make in this case and I know that this person I've had a personal discussion with this person that was facing not being in this career anymore or we support and we kind of work through the problem together and I guarantee you that that guy is going to go on to do great things because he is going to work his tail off to earn what we have given him now every single day. And and those guys, they just they go on to be great. And it is those stumbles where you support them rather than just kick them to the side.
Matt Thomas:And I'll tell you, a lot of it came from, uh, from the sheriff, uh, and and he changed even some of my perspective because I was I was a pretty rigid guy, you know coming up very militaristic because we're a paramilitary organization, uh. But the sheriff made a statement real early on that really stuck with me and he said you know, if our kids mess up, do we kick them out of our family? And I was like well, no, he says no, we help them work through it. They're our blood, you know. And I said yeah, and he said so why are we doing that to our people in this profession? And that really stuck with me through all the decisions we have to make.
Travis Yates:Yeah, and that's why I love talk. That's why I love talking to you, matt, because those of you listening this is he's not just throwing you a bunch of steam here. I mean, go back on our podcast and listen to the podcast with captain Hunter Rankin. He is a prime example of what Matt just talked about. He was left out I mean they could have easily got rid of him and he tells that story about how management cared for him and gave him another chance and, of course, he's flourishing today. So go back and listen to that one.
Travis Yates:But, matt, before we get into some of the leadership style stuff because that's going to be gold and you've already sort of alluded to it you wrote a book called the Interceptors. That had to have come from your experience involved with that team. You just talked about kind of what inspired you to write that book, because you've been all over I mean, this is no jack car podcast, but we're pretty close, right. You've been all over talking about that book. Uh, kind of tell us, tell us what inspired you to do that and, kind of, based on your experiences, tell us what it's like down there working near the border.
Matt Thomas:Well, I'll start with. The inspiration really was the fact that I knew that we were a part of US history that the rest of the world didn't know about. We were doing things down here in Arizona that is not typical of law enforcement and a lot of what you're seeing now in like the Texas area, new Mexico area, they're seeing and facing what we were facing a decade or so ago. They're seeing and facing what we were facing a decade or so ago and that time frame the 2009, 10, 11 time frame is when a lot of the operations in the book were going on. So I knew we had a piece of American history that needed to be told, because I worked with some just no two ways about it.
Matt Thomas:I worked with heroes man and they did some fantastic work and we were involved in some operations that had to be collaborative on every level federal, state, local and we had great teams working together Border Patrol, hsi, us and did good work. So I wanted to document that first off right, and I wanted to get that recorded. And then I wanted to really honor those people that did that work and show like here's what goes on at night, when most people are asleep in their beds. Here's what we were out doing to make sure you could peacefully sleep in your beds, and I wanted them to know that and I wanted them to get a no BS version of here's what we were dealing with, because if you read the book and you read the operations, you're going to go. This is what I get most often. Those are like military operations.
Matt Thomas:So, I know, and we didn't know what we were doing, we were not the military. We had some military people, you know, that had served and were part of our teams, but we were not the military and so we had to learn that stuff as we went. And we're fighting a criminal organization with unlimited resources and they're very violent. It's the Sinaloa cartel that we're up against here and so, yeah, I wanted to get all that stuff in there and in the beginning you'll you'll read a little bit about me because I felt like I needed to lay a foundation of who I was and why I can speak on the matter. And then I go into the operations themselves and it talks about all that stuff.
Travis Yates:Yeah, it's fantastic. You've got to get a copy of it. It's called the Interceptors the Untold Fight Against the Mexican Cartel. I'll put a link in the show notes, but do yourself a favor, get a copy of that.
Matt Thomas:You done the audio book yet, matt, I have not. That is the one complaint I keep hearing.
Travis Yates:And yeah, if you're like me, I get the same complaint, but I'm like I can't really say a complete sentence without messing up, so that's going to take weeks for me to do hey, and to that point, travis, people don't realize it is harder than heck especially your own story to sit there and read into a microphone.
Matt Thomas:Keep the same cadence, all that stuff.
Travis Yates:It's tough. Brutal man, it's brutal. Maybe A I could do it for us in the next few years.
Matt Thomas:I don't know, there you go. I've been putting it off.
Travis Yates:I'm five years in, I still haven't done it, so odds are it's not going to happen. So yeah, now know you were laying this out. It's really, really incredible. And you mentioned Sheriff Mark Lamb, and I have to think that was a drinking through a fire hose, right? Because those of you who don't know Sheriff Lamb, his ideology on law enforcement is not the typical leadership theory that you may think about, right? It's more holistic, it's more personal, it's more of a caring approach.
Matt Thomas:And you had to probably adjust early on to that, did you not? I did, and I didn't, because I kind of had that style myself. So I, you know, as I came up through the ranks, I liked, I would like to think that I was a caring leader, because I care about other people Bottom line, right. I care about human beings and as a leader, I was one of those guys that if you were a slacker, you did not like working for me because I would outwork you and that was not good for you, right. But if you were a performer, you loved working for me because we were on the run and I would support you as much as I could. And throughout my tenure as a sergeant, I got in trouble several times for standing up to weak leadership because they were making wrong decisions. And I have been in trouble through my career several different times because I stood up for what was right, which is a really hard thing to do, especially when you're facing demotion or discipline or stuff like that. But so that was kind of at my core anyway. So I'll tell you.
Matt Thomas:When Mark sat me down, here's how it went down. Mark reached out through a third party and said hey, can you ask Matt if he would be interested? And so at the time I said, yes, I would be interested, but I'm not going to talk to him until after the election is done because it would be disrespectful as a lieutenant, it'd be disrespectful to my current administration for me to have those discussions with him, and he completely agreed with that. So after he wins the primary, I said, okay, now I'll have a discussion with you. And he says, well, I want you and your wife to meet me and my wife and I'm going to interview you for the job. And I'm like you want me to bring my wife. And he says yep. And so I figured out why. Because, if you know Mark, family is huge for him. And so he wanted to be sure. He told me this is an all in thing you know with with you and I and our wives as well. And so he wanted everybody to be part of that discussion and decision. And he sat there, he laid out his, his plan, his goals, his objectives and, as part of that, you.
Matt Thomas:I at that time saw who Mark was, the person that had become the sheriff, and I was all in. I was like this is the guy we need, like this is the leadership we need, because that care that you talk about and just the family orientation and everything that he approaches it was evident. And so I was all in at that point and so I took the core of who I was and kind of adjusted that to Mark's style. And that did take a little bit of adjustment because I was more of a rigid you know, here's the rules and Mark was more of a let's take those lines and kind of smudge them around and you know, so we can kind of go into these gray areas a little bit more. So that took a little bit of getting used to, but man has it been productive and I've learned so much doing it.
Travis Yates:Yeah, we're going to talk about success you've had in the last several years because, I've mentioned already, the agency is so unique and it's so special. But I want to give you credit, matt, and I know you're not going to take it, you're not going to like it well, but Mark Lamb would not be who Mark Lamb is today without you. I know you're going to give him credit as well, because people need to understand you're running that department, mark. Yes, mark's the sheriff, but Mark has other responsibilities away from the department. So you're there day to day and you have to implement what, what you guys, have put into place. And so talk to us about the pressure of that. Right, I mean, that's an incredibly busy job. It's incredibly taxing job, a lot of responsibility. That was a big adjustment for you. Kind of talk to us through those early days and how you got through that to where I know your quarter got things in place. Now You're sort of cruising and you're really enjoying things. But there in the first few years I'm sure there were ups and downs.
Matt Thomas:Oh man, there were a lot of ups and downs and a lot of learning curves, a lot of you don't know what, you don't know right, a lot of opening doors and then shutting them real quick because you don't want anything to come out of that door. But yeah, as I moved into this position, it is a heavy responsibility anyways is the responsibility of the people that work here and that I work with and making sure they're okay, and that becomes the huge weight, right. And so at the time when we took over, we came out of an administration that didn't think that way. They didn't necessarily treat everybody, and I want to say fairly, but they just not with with dignity and respect, and so there was a lot of hurt feelings.
Matt Thomas:There was a lot of broken, broken down bridges between, like us and our main county, which is we are part of the county government still, so we have to function that way. So there was a lot of bridge building for us. There was a lot of restructuring relationships and the weird thing was, even though I had been here my whole life, I still had to regain the trust of the employees because I moved into this position now and it was a different position. They viewed it differently, and so I had to regain that trust. And that was one of the hardest things for me, because I was like dude, I'm the same guy Like you guys know me.
Matt Thomas:But it was still a process and so that was, you know, that kind of messed with me a little bit and that took some growing and but really I think we functioned well once we got up on our feet and got through that first year. To how I view this position is just another assignment and I think that keeps me a little bit grounded because I don't I don't really step back and get overwhelmed with, oh my God, it's the whole agency. I just worry about what I actually, you know, day to day have to deal with, which is my direct reports, and we keep our span of control here manageable. So you know, just like a sergeant, I have a five to seven direct report span of control. So I focus on that span of control and then I let those people focus on their span of control and you know it works like it's supposed to. Everybody takes care of their area, is responsible for their area.
Matt Thomas:That made it much more manageable for me and it made that whole you know analogy of how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time.
Matt Thomas:It made it doable. So I was able to take that one bite at a time and get through those first couple of years that were really tough learning the job. And then we knew in the beginning we're going to be drinking from a fire hose at least the first year, if not two, and then we're going to start getting better at managing. And then we're going to get into our groove. And then we knew that these last few years, which has held true, would be kind of our fine tuning, that we would have all the big stuff taken care of. And now we just fine tune as we go along. And I'll tell you, the sheriff and I both will give credit to our leadership throughout our ranks and leadership doesn't necessarily mean that they have rank. The leaders throughout this agency made that possible. Everywhere we looked, we would turn to somebody and we would give them more than they could handle and they would take it on and they would do fantastic and it made this job a lot easier.
Travis Yates:Yeah, you talk about having to build that trust, and this is something that you know. I talk about a lot where trust just doesn't come automatically, whether you think they know you're not, but before they trust you, you have to actually trust them, and so I know that's the way you operate, and so how much did that speed that trust up when they realized, hey, this guy trusts me to do my job, he's not going to get in my way, he's going to trust me? Did that sort of accelerate that for you?
Matt Thomas:It did.
Matt Thomas:And I think one of the biggest things that that helped us leap forward in that trust piece was when, especially with our executive staff, and when we would meet with them, let them actually tell us what they thought Right and I this and this was a little bit of a struggle, it's not like it came easy.
Matt Thomas:And this was a little bit of a struggle, it's not like it came easy. There were several times where I was yelling at my executive staff to stop lying to me and feeding me lines of BS, because I knew there were problems and they weren't telling me what the problems were, because that trust wasn't there. And that's where we broke through is when I told them I need a no BS assessment of what's going on. Even if it's me, if I'm the problem, I need to know that. And when we had a few leaders that were like, all right, we're going to give it a shot, and they told me that I sucked in certain areas and I took that information and I adjusted what I needed to adjust. And I took that information and I adjusted, you know, what I needed to adjust, and I thank them for being open and honest with me. We broke down some serious walls when that happened.
Travis Yates:So I've mentioned this more than once, but the culture there at your agency is above any I've ever seen. And we talk about culture. I'd just like to hear your thoughts on what that culture means, what you did to sort of build that to where it is today, because I cheated, I cheated Matt. I wasn't there the first couple of years. You were there. I've come in in the last couple of years and so I've seen the fruits of all the hard work. But that doesn't happen overnight. But just culture is probably the biggest issue inside law enforcement today. When culture breaks down, everything breaks down, and so there are people out there listening that think it's over. There's no way we get this back. We have this leader or that leader or this happened or that happened Just kind of talk through because, as you said, when you came in, things weren't great right. So you had to build that from that level to where you are today. You did it in a very short time period.
Matt Thomas:Talk to the audience about how you were able to build the culture that you have today. Well, I think the biggest factor for our success with our culture has been our view of ourselves. To be quite frank with you, we don't view ourselves as anything special. We don't view ourselves above anybody, any smarter than anybody. We just view ourselves as regular guys who were granted these positions and granted the opportunity to serve our entire county and our agency. And so I think that, with Mark and I, our approach to our positions helped us break down a lot of those walls and just you know kind of what I just described to you sitting with my staff and telling them I want to hear how I suck so I can fix it, so that we don't keep doing this.
Matt Thomas:Because I'm a SWAT guy Right, and when we have hot washes on SWAT, you know this. When you get done with a SWAT operation, you sit down. You have a hot wash. Rank is out the window, all the BS is out the window. Your egos leave you sit down and you get real, real quick because you know your guy to your right and your left. You're depending on them to do everything right so that we all go home at the end of the day, and sometimes you're the guy that makes the mistake and you need to hear that because you need to make it right so that you don't get somebody hurt or killed. Well, I know that, coming into this position Mark's a former SWAT guy too. He knows that.
Matt Thomas:Coming into this position, so we came in with humility, we came in with the thought that we didn't like there's nothing that we did special. I mean, he got elected, yes, but there's nothing that makes us better because we hold this rank or these positions. We are just guys that have been gifted with leadership spots and we want to ensure a legacy of leadership. We want to come back in 20 years, and one of our mantras has been we want to leave it better than when we got it, so that when we do come back in 20 years, I can see that deputy that started, and he started his career when we hired him and then, because of the love and support and leadership input that we gave him, he's now a lieutenant or a captain and he's leading the way.
Matt Thomas:That we wanted leadership to work here, and so that really was our goal. That we wanted leadership to work here, and so that really was our goal, and so this will sound, you know, soft and mushy to a lot of guys, but it's love, man. I love the agency, I love my county, I love my state, I love the people that work here and you know, it's not a, it's that kind of love that is deep down in my heart that I would give my life for. And so when you have that kind of love for your people, your agency, the profession, I think that carries over and people understand that that's real right.
Matt Thomas:I'm not trying to fake the funk. I'm not trying to be some stuffed shirt who thinks I'm special because I hold some rank or I have some certificate on the wall. I'm just a dude that's in charge and I'm trying to better the place. I'm trying to better people and I want to love and support them any way I can and I think that that they feel that they carry that forward and then they push that out as well. Right, and it just it starts making waves and it goes generation after generation, because we're in a weird time right now generational shifts in law enforcement.
Travis Yates:Yeah, it's hard to fake it because people can smell that out. But also, when you're authentic, it's hard for people that below you that want to fake it, it's hard for them to fake it as well. So that authenticity breeds, as you said and I tell this story in my seminar it's straight from when I was at your agency, matt, where I was walking out of a class during one of the breaks and I saw one of your canine officers at the top of the sort of seating area and he's sitting there, veteran guy, 20 plus years on, and I asked him I say how are you doing today? Just trying to make conversation. And he just lit up a smile and said I'm awesome, I to make conversation. And he just lit up a smile and said I'm awesome. You know, I don't. I don't talk to 25 year old, grizzle, grizzle, bitter veterans that say that all the time. So I stopped and I said well, what makes it awesome? And all he said to me was man, they let me do my job and they care for me and they're there for me and just, and it, just, it just really brought.
Travis Yates:We talk about all these different leadership theories, but it really brought it down to just that, and you've been mentioning it today. You just care for people and then when you do that, what happens is pretty amazing and just sort of talk about, because there's been ups and downs. There's been personal ups and downs. Even you and Mark, you've had problems. But when the rubber meets the road, I don't mean problems in a bad way, but just life, life has happened. But when the rubber meets the road and you have a culture that cares man, you really see it. Then, do you not?
Matt Thomas:Oh, absolutely, yeah, and and uh. You know, I want people to have a clear understanding that, uh, it's not all. You know roses and and uh, unicorns and rainbows, man it's. You know, life happens. I mean Mark, uh, we had a tough deal when Mark lost his son and granddaughter and daughter-in-law all in one accident. And then our chief, who all three of us kind of came in together, our chief over patrol. He lost his 25 year old son unexpectedly year prior to that. So we've had like the personal stuff that has hit us hard and you have to get up and you have to keep on going because people rely on you and you can't.
Matt Thomas:Um, you know, colin Powell is is a leader that I looked a lot at as I moved into this leadership position and, um, I teach this in some of my leadership stuff that I do. He made a statement that you bring your own weather right and what that translates to is that wherever you show up just like our canine officer, when you said how are you doing today? And he gave you a big smile and said I'm awesome that breeds positivity, right. And so when you go places and you're positive like that man, it just breeds positivity because we're like any other agency. We have the guys that you know sit around the table and talk about what sucks, because that's just what our profession does. We're like that. We sit around and we bitch about things, but and we actually the sheriff and I promote that too we tell them yeah, we bitch, right. So we expect you to bitch, and if you're bitching about me, I don't care, that's fine. Dude, I don't take that personal. I understand, because there's things that the sheriff has done that I don't like right and there's things that I do that the sheriff doesn't like.
Matt Thomas:We understand that we're all humans.
Matt Thomas:We let that human piece play out, we don't hold grudges like little kids, we act like grown men and we treat each other with respect and I think that all carries forward through those hard times, through those personal trials, through all of that of that, and we show our agency A, like I've already said, that we're humble, we're normal, we have the same problems you have, we're dealing with the same things you deal with, and I think I don't know that we're going to get into it but even the mental health stuff, right.
Matt Thomas:I openly share some of the struggles that I've had, some of the stuff I've dealt with and how I've dealt with it. I openly share with my agency that I have went through ketamine treatments and I tell any of them, hey, if you want to talk to me about it, I'll talk to you about it and I think it's it's that vulnerability that being real with them, them understanding that I'm just a normal dude. I'm just granted this, this awesome position to to be at the head of the agency with the sheriff. I think all of that culminates into the culture we're speaking of and the leadership and kind of how we have pushed forward through this.
Travis Yates:Yeah, that vulnerability is big. It's so rare, matt, and it's hard to describe. When I'm with your agency and I see you intermingling, it's hard to describe because it's so different, it's so unique. It's so gratifying to watch and most people aren't in that environment, unfortunately. But you alluded to it. We were actually just now going to get to it. But you've given your agency incredible resources to make them better. They may have to take their own initiative, but there's incredible things you've done. I mean you're doing things that combine. I don't know if every agency is doing this. I mean, just on the top of my head, you, you do leadership training constantly. Uh, you, you do you bring in page doing the yoga stuff. You've done the uh, uh, you've done, uh, dr Miss Javiti Javiti stuff. I mean you've got a lot of resources for your agency. Just kind of talk about how you've seen that help your agency, all the opportunities you've given them.
Matt Thomas:Well, we want to be. As you mentioned early on. The sheriff has a holistic approach and that's how we want to kind of approach. How we treat the agency is a holistic approach. So we want to throw out as many resources as we can because we understand again that we're all people. Everybody learns a different way, everybody views things a different way. Everybody you know they have different likes, dislikes, and so we try to bring in as many of those programs you know, as many leadership style trainings that we can, so that they get different angles and we're not just trying to push something that we believe in down their throat, we're giving them options. Because I really feel that's like one of the wins that we have is when we just put stuff out there and we say, hey, we want to help you, here are different things out there that we think can help you and we're going to bring them in and make them available to you.
Matt Thomas:Not, the yoga is a perfect example. I was just having a conversation on do we want to continue or do we not? Is it worth our return on investment? Because we only have X number of employees who are participating and we pay this much for it, and I'm like well, let's talk about the number. You know we have this many employees that are participating and we pay this much, so that equals X amount per employee. I think that's a pretty good investment, right, and you know just not to air our dirty laundry. But we have about 10, 15 percent of our agency that takes part in the yoga. But if I say no to that, then 10 or 15 percent of the people that are getting something from that have now lost out. And if I get 10 programs that capture 10 or 15 percent, guess what? I'm there.
Travis Yates:I've got my 100 percent.
Matt Thomas:Right.
Travis Yates:No, it's a. It's a great way to look at it, because I talk to so many agencies and I go well, we don't need this, we have this deal or we have this deal, and they're locked into a certain methodology. Right, and what you said is so accurate. Everybody learns different, something like different people's fire than everything else. Yoga may not be for everybody, but the jiu jitsu may be for other people, and so that is obviously that's an investment. It's an investment of resources, but there's no better way to invest your resources than your people. That's what you're doing.
Matt Thomas:Yeah, absolutely. And if you look at it, if you look at our agency like you noticed when you were here, travis, and it's noticed all over the state and even the country people always ask, mark, and I, like man, what are you guys doing down there in Pinal County? Because here's the true testament when I talk to agencies throughout who have met people from our agency and they have no idea that I'm connected to any of these people that I'm talking to, and somebody comes up to you and says I don't know what you guys are doing in Pinal County, but your people love it down there, that is a win for us, that is what we're going for right, and so it is a true investment. Because what that translates to and I think this is where leaders in this profession miss the mark because they're paying attention to the wrong stuff and so for us, when we get from people all over the state, all over the nation, I don't know what you're doing in Pinal County, but your people love you there.
Matt Thomas:Well, if our people love us and they love the job they're doing, guess what? They're doing a better job because they're going out with positive attitudes. They're treating people differently, and we see that in our community and that is the investment. So if you're going out with positive attitudes, they're treating people differently and we see that in our community and that is the investment. So if you're going to try and tell me that, you can put a dollar amount on our community feeling safer than they've ever felt, our crime consistently going down every year while our jail population goes down. So we're not arresting and booking more people, we're booking less people, but our crime rate is dropping. That's because we have community involvement, because they are not afraid to engage with our officers. They view our officers as fellow citizens and that all is a winning combination.
Travis Yates:Well, let me just sort of delineate the difference in what you're talking about. I want our especially our municipal leaders to take heed. What you're talking about, Matt, is you're investing in your individual personnel versus a catch-all program right now in Boston, where there's going to be all about the programs, all about the plug and play systems and this, and that that does not replace the investment and what you can do for people, Because if you can invest in people, you don't need those programs.
Matt Thomas:Right, yeah, and that is it, travis, if you invest in your people, your people are going to create the programs or they're going to be the program. Right, and just like we have all different demographics in our community, we have all different demographics in our agency. And when, when you, when they understand the mission, when they know the heart of the sheriff and the chief and they know how we care not only about them but about our community, and they feel cared for, and then they take that forward and they care about their community the same way we care about them and we care about our community. That's where you get your win and that's where those programs go by the wayside, because then you have personal interactions, which is really what we need to get back to in policing. Right, we need personal interactions between Matt Thomas, the person in this uniform, and whoever I'm dealing with in the community, because when we deal with each other as people, it's a different thing. It's it looks different, it feels different and we have different results. There's a different level of respect for citizens and how they interact with this uniform, in particular from our agency. And I can tell you you know, you were here, you can see it and feel it. There are agencies around us that have completely different interactions with citizens, based on the agency they work for and how they treat people. And you know I'm not a hug, a thug guy Like.
Matt Thomas:We tell people when we hire them anybody we hire in a uniform the sheriff and I sit down with them prior to them coming on the job and we just have a one-on-one or two-on-one with them, three-on-one sometimes with one of our chiefs, and we tell them this is super informal, we want to give you a chance to get to know us a little bit, know what you're getting into, ask us any questions you want to ask us, and then we want to know a little bit about you and then we tell them that we expect you to be loyal to this patch and to this agency and to the people you serve. That's where your loyalty lies and you protect the Constitution and guess what? There are some evil people out there and when you're dealing with them, we expect you to deal with them accordingly, because a lot of times they only understand certain things. Ie violence and I was told as a young cop and this has stuck with me my whole career.
Matt Thomas:We are customer service oriented. If the customer demands violence. We got to give it harder and faster so that we're safe and we take care of our community, and so we kind of give them that same spill. We expect them to treat all of our community members with respect. But this job is not pretty and when it gets ugly we want you to get to work and we're going to worry about all the BS. We're going to take care of that. You just do your job and come home safe.
Travis Yates:There's a lot of learning lessons in this podcast, matt, but I'll tell you right now what you just said. Every chief and sheriff in America needs to have that conversation with their officers, because we're seeing an epidemic of unawareness, epidemic of hesitation. We're seeing more officer assaults than ever before. It's because cops are more scared of YouTube and everybody else than actually going home and not there, because they don't know if they're going to someone's going to have their back, and so just having that conversation alone could do wonders for their safety.
Matt Thomas:Yeah, absolutely. And again, as they're coming to work for us, we want it to be very clear, like you didn't hear it from somebody who heard it from somebody who heard it from somebody that's straight from the sheriff. And this is our expectations and this is how we're going to treat it.
Travis Yates:Chief Deputy Matt Thomas, I can't thank you enough. Where can people find you? Reach out to you? Because I'm telling you, if you haven't heard him speak or you haven't read his book, you've got to get a hold of both.
Matt Thomas:He's kind of telling where the easiest way to find me is either on linkedin or instagram. I'm active on both of those uh. Instagram, my my handle there is at deputy underscore one time uh. And then on linkedin smathy thomas and uh yeah, get in touch and and, uh, you know, just just like you, travis, I I love this profession. Um, I want to keep it strong and so i'm'm doing my best to pass on what I can pass on.
Travis Yates:It's legacy building stuff. Matt, I can't thank you enough. Thanks for being here and if you've been watching and you've been listening, thank you for being here. Thank you for spending your time with us and just remember lead on and stay courageous.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates. We invite you to join other courageous leaders at www. travisyates. org.
