Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates
Courageous Leadership with Dr. Travis Yates Podcast examines what it means to be a Courageous Police Leader. Join us weekly as the concepts of Courageous Leadership are detailed along with interviews with influencers that are committed to leading with courage. You can find out more about Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates at: www.TravisYates.org
Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates
Mentoring Police Chiefs with Billy Grogan
Discover the crucial traits every police chief needs with insights from Billy Grogan, retired police chief and founder of Top Cop Leadership. The author of "Guardians of the Community," Grogan's career began with the Marietta Police Department in 1981 and culminated in the establishment of the Dunwoody Police Department, provides a wealth of knowledge on effective leadership. We explore the importance of seeking mentorship, creating a balanced team, and encouraging open communication. Billy emphasizes humility and collaboration, making this episode a must-listen for anyone in law enforcement leadership.
We also navigate the evolving landscape of policing culture, addressing the challenges of managing a multi-generational workforce. With younger officers prioritizing work-life balance, agencies must innovate with flexible schedules and wellness programs. Billy shares his thoughts on modernizing recruitment and retention strategies, stressing the importance of adaptable yet quality-focused approaches. Finally, we delve into career development, highlighting the value of education, diverse agency experience, and networking through organizations like the IACP. Tune in to learn how to build a well-rounded skill set and enhance departmental effectiveness from a seasoned expert.
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And so we need to try to focus on the things that are important, which is delivering that quality service, treating people with the dignity and respect that we expect them to treat citizens with.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates, where leaders find the insights, advice and encouragement they need to lead courageously.
Travis Yates:Welcome back to the show and I am super excited about today's guest. Today on the Courageous Leadership Podcast, we have Billy Grogan. He's a retired police chief and is the owner and operator of Top Cop Leadership. This is the go-to resource for aspiring police chiefs and current police chiefs. How are you doing, Chief?
Billy Grogan:I'm doing great Good to be with you.
Travis Yates:Well, man, you're doing some pretty exciting stuff. It's a niche that is really needed. But I think before we get there, obviously you have a high interest in teaching, coaching, helping people become chiefs Once they get there, do a good job. We all need that. But before you did that, walk us through your career. I know you ended up as a police chief, but walk us through your career in law enforcement and what put you here today.
Billy Grogan:Sure I'd be happy to. I started my career with the Marietta Police Department, just outside of Atlanta, in 1981. I served there for almost 28 years, served in various positions and investigations a detective admin I was our crime analyst at one time and then, of course, various supervisory roles up to the deputy chief position. I served in that position about four or five years and then had the wonderful opportunity to go to the city of Dunwoody and start the Dunwoody Police Department from scratch. It was a brand new city. They hired me December 17th of 2008, and we got the police department up and running by April 1st 2009, in a little over three months, with 40 officers, eight civilians, and that was just a fantastic, exciting period of time in my life and very rewarding.
Travis Yates:Well, you didn't have much holiday off that year for sure, so that would have been a busy time. So in three months you're able to build it. So that's so unique and obviously you could talk days about that process and you obviously did an excellent job. There's a lot of missteps you could have made. What was the most important factors for you when you found out? This is going to be my responsibility out.
Billy Grogan:This is going to be my responsibility. So I think two things. One is we had had some new cities created in Metro Atlanta in the recent past, and so I sought out those police chiefs who had gone through the process themselves of creating a brand new police department from scratch. That was number one. Number two was hiring a core group of team members. You know, obviously that's not something a police chief could do by him or herself, and so I hired a group of really strong leaders who could step into the roles and we kind of divided up the responsibilities of, you know, starting the department, who was going to do hiring, who was going to do equipment, who was going to do training, that sort of thing and policy and all those other things. And so that was really a key having the right people on the team.
Travis Yates:I would assume that it's going to be very important. You know, we all have our strengths and weaknesses, chief. You know, in all my positions I would try to fill in the gaps for my weakness. If I'm not good at administrative skills, well, I need somebody to help me with that. So I would imagine you had a lot of skills going into that. But there were some things you probably didn't, you weren't the best at. How did you? Did you go up? Was that what you did? You filled in the gaps and found people to kind of do that for you.
Billy Grogan:Oh, absolutely 100%. One of our do that for you. Oh, absolutely 100%. One of our lieutenants from the Marietta Police Department was eligible to retire and he had a background in policy development, and so I brought him in as a deputy chief and he was able to get our policy going. We had other people that had strengths in training and particularly the high liability areas like firearms, and so they came in and so, yeah, it was really trying to. You know, as Jim Collins says, you know getting the right people on the bus and then getting them in the right seat, and that was very important for the startup of the department.
Travis Yates:Such an important trait that we need. I mean, and obviously, when you empower those individuals, you have to give up some of your power. That's why it's called empowerment right? Sure man, what a much better environment and what a much better team you can build by doing that, and so you saw that firsthand. Is that some of the things that you try to talk to these new chiefs about, and talk to upcoming chiefs to try to build those skills so they don't have to make the mistakes and move on?
Billy Grogan:Well, I think that's important, because no police chief knows everything. And that's the first sign of true leadership is really understanding that you don't know everything and you're not expected to know everything. And so having those team members on your team who compliment your skills and also, you know, people who are willing to, you know, be honest and truthful with you about the facts of how the department is and the things that need to be done and I know that you know, in Dunwoody I tried to always tell our staff hey, if I'm doing something wrong, please point it out to me. If I say something that's not actually accurate, please tell me, so I don't keep repeating that. And you know I had, you know, some ideas I thought were good and and they kind of, you know, said well, chief, that's really not a good idea to do that, you know. And so you know we learned and we're a better department because of it.
Travis Yates:Well, that's a sign of the culture you had built, because there's many environments where they don't feel comfortable telling the chief that right.
Travis Yates:Yeah. So you've got to really lay the groundwork so they feel comfortable to give you criticism. But we're never going to be able to achieve what we need without that constructive criticism. So that is, I will be honest, chief. I think that's pretty unique and I think that that's needed and I've often thought about. So let's say you're a brand new chief. I want you to game this for me. You're the expert in this. Right? Okay, top cop leadership. Did I say that? Right, we'll get all the links at the end of the show. But you are grooming chiefs each and every week and you're trying to help out new chiefs and try to answer the questions, even helping people with resumes and trying to help people get this position. Let's say you're a brand new chief in a department. Let's just make it easy round numbers 100-person department. Give me the first 30 days. Give me the first 30 days. It's an outside chief. They don't know anything about the department. Give me the first 30 days. You'd recommend.
Billy Grogan:Well, first you got to come in and you really want to get to know the people.
Billy Grogan:So that's you know.
Billy Grogan:That's key, because these are the people that's going to help you be successful or they're going to sabotage you and prevent you from being successful.
Billy Grogan:So you've got to get to know them, find out their strengths and weaknesses, their likes and dislikes and the challenges facing the department from their perspective, and then you've got to really take an inventory of what the department's about. Hopefully, through the hiring process you found out a little bit about what the needs were and it could be totally different. If they're a dysfunctional department and they fired the chief, you may have one mission. If they've had a long-serving chief and the department's a well-run department, that may be another opportunity. So you need to find out in the first 30, 60 to 90 days, you know, get to know people and then find out, kind of the lay of the land, who are the influencers in the department, who are the influencers in the community, and find out what the challenges are with that department so you can kind of figure out, maybe where you need to go then in the future kind of figure out, maybe, where you need to go.
Travis Yates:Then in the future I'll take this a next step and I'm interested to see what you have to say about it, because I've been around a few departments. When new chiefs come in, you've got to find out who the snakes are, right. You've got to find out who those who are trying to sabotage you are Sure and it's very strange to me because I've watched this from both inside and outside agencies when that new chief comes in, you can almost see him circling right and you have the charismatic snakes that you think are the greatest people ever. So you really, you're right, you've got to take a step back and really get an accurate assessment of what's going on. And I've often thought about is the line personnel could probably give you the most honest assessment if you could somehow get them to be able to reach out to you and talk to you. So that'd be pretty intimidating, right? A brand new chief. What would be your recommendations if that brand new chief wanted to get the line personnel, every police officer, not just someone? In 1996, bobby Moody came to the Marietta.
Billy Grogan:Police Department. He was an outside police chief. We were a very dysfunctional department. He actually did a fireside chat with every member of the department, every single person. He sat down with them from 30 minutes to an hour, had a chat with that person, talked to that person not only about the department but that person's future, and it was one of those.
Billy Grogan:I was a lieutenant at the time and it was a chat with him that really changed the trajectory of my career, because he asked me you know, what do I want to do with my career? And I said, oh, I'll be promoted to captain. And he said, oh, I'm not talking about the next step. In the long end, what do you want to accomplish in your career? Nobody ever asked me that question.
Billy Grogan:And so I sat there and I said, well, I'd love to be a police chief, like you. And he said okay, what have you done to become a police chief? And I said several things and he said well, everybody else is doing that. And he said what about your education? And I said, oh, well, I plan on going back to school and everything. And so he pushed me. He said I want to know when you're going back to school, and I said soon. He said no, I want a date. And I told him this fall, this was soon. He said no, I want a date. And I told him this fall this was in 1998 or 97, I'm sorry and I said this fall in September. He said okay, and I started back at school and got my degree and less than 10 years later I was named a police chief at the city of Dunwoody.
Travis Yates:It's a powerful story, because I don't think we recognize that our words have that kind of power right.
Travis Yates:I've got similar stories where I mean I would. There was a rank I wasn't even going to test for because I was in a great position. It just was one chief that looked at me and said I really want to see you do this, and it was just those words that motivated me to do it. And so everybody in this profession has that ability, but so many people don't think they do Cause we, we put, we said, we attach this leadership thing to rank so much right when you have to start somewhere. And uh, that's, that's an amazing story. And what kind of challenges do you see for the new chiefs? Uh, sir, I mean, I understand that we have more challenges than we ever had before the political challenges, the community challenges. But if you were to barrel this down in the biggest traps a new chief may encounter, what would you talk to him about?
Billy Grogan:Well, I think you know, ever since Ferguson and George Floyd, you know there's the public scrutiny and you know, really, the negativity toward police and that's been difficult for a lot of places to overcome. And officers tend to look at social media and think that's the way everybody thinks, and so you really have to keep encouraging people and let them know that that's a small percentage of people that really feels that way. So you have to build a really strong relationship with the community. That's the first. It doesn't matter. It does matter, but it's not as important what's happening, say, in California and I'm here in Georgia. I need to talk about our residents and our community and so focus on that, building those good, strong relationships, on that building those good, strong relationships.
Billy Grogan:And then it's really become so complicated today managing this multi-generational workforce.
Billy Grogan:You've got people like me, who are the tail end of the baby boomers still working, all the way down to these young 21-year-olds that are coming in, and they all have a different philosophy about work and the way they look at things, and I think we have to acknowledge that. The people like me, who is a baby boomer, it was all about work. I'd work 60, 70 hours a week sometimes, especially when I was in detectives, and not even think about it. But today's employee really values that time off and you got to acknowledge that and you got to kind of make room for that, because they put family first, which is so important and something that maybe some of us baby boomers didn't do, that we should have done. And so I think you know looking at scheduling, you know ulcer wellness is so important today. You've got to be aware of that and you know doing. You know whatever programs you need to do to help with officers, whether it's an employee assistance program You've got all the different factors that come into play with that.
Travis Yates:Yeah, it's such an important point. We can't sit around and expect them to change. They're not going to change. We have to adapt to it and we do have a lot of resources at our disposal alternative shifts I fought for 12-hour shifts for years at my agency, but our generation didn't want to hear it because by golly we need to be at work every day. Right, and I tried to explain to them. They kept complaining that well, everybody's taking off work, they're running their vacation time down. And I kept trying to explain. I go, this is who they are. You're going to have to adapt to them and you have some opportunities and, of course, wellness. There's more resources than ever and communication is huge.
Travis Yates:We talk a lot about the retention problem in law enforcement Chief and we sort of blame the media, we blame politicians. Well, part of that retention issue is the fact, unlike you and I, that came into this job, this was our career. We were going to be here for 30 or 40 years and they couldn't run us out of this career. It's almost a tryout with these kids. It's not a problem to take a job for a couple of years and go to another job and go to another job. So if we don't treat them appropriately, expect them to walk away from the job. I mean, both you and I were treated from time to time horribly.
Travis Yates:We would never have thought of leaving the job right, and so we have to adapt to that and we're sort of missing the boat here. I hear a lot about the recruiting issue and I go, but you're still recruiting, like you recruited me, where I took a test and I waited by the mailbox for six months to get a letter Right, no, no, if you wait six hours to communicate with a kid, these days they're gone, and so we have to keep adapting to that. I'm sure that's a lot of the conversations you're having with some of these new chiefs, Absolutely 100%.
Billy Grogan:It's about communication. It's also about kind of understanding, you know, kind of the way they think and adapting. It's, for instance, beards, tattoos. You know me personally, I'm not a big fan of a beard and a uniform patrol officer or visible tattoos. However, I come to realize that if I wanted to hire good quality police officers, I was going to have to set aside my personal belief, and really it was because of my career and how people before me looked at it, and so you know I had to make, you know, adjustment to that.
Billy Grogan:And I think you know there's things that, in the grand scheme of things, we've never had one complaint about somebody's beard or one complaint about a tattoo, even though personally I don't necessarily think it looks good on a police officer. Personally I don't necessarily think it looks good on a police officer. The citizens don't care. They want somebody that's responsive, that has compassion, that's concerned about whatever they're calling the police about, and as long as that person shows up and they're showing that concern, they're giving them good service. They don't care about the other.
Billy Grogan:And so sometimes we as police chiefs focus on things that are not, in the grand scheme of things, are not that important, and so we need to try to focus on the things that are important, which is delivering that quality service, treating people with the dignity and respect that we expect them to treat citizens with, Because if we don't, they're not going to stay there. There's so many opportunities and a lot of them leave policing and get in the private sector. We've had people leave the Dunwoody Police Department and become a Delta flight attendant, to go to work for Facebook, to be a construction manager, all kinds of jobs, because there's a lot of jobs available and so we have to, you know, treat people like we want them to stay and like we value them and invest in them.
Travis Yates:It is so interesting because you know when you retire, you know when you're inside of law enforcement, any organization for 20 or 30 years or longer. You almost get isolated and it's been so interesting I've been, I walked, I left it. Or 30 years or longer. You almost get isolated and it's been so interesting, I left it for 30 years. I've been gone for about a year, but I have had these epiphany moments and one of the epiphany moments you just mentioned, chief, when I was inside the department I was so hardcore about uniform this and hairline this and polish your shoes, this and that, because we cared about that. I cared about that.
Travis Yates:But when I got away from law enforcement, I found out what you just said Nobody in the world cares. Nobody cares whether you have BDU pants or pockets on your pants or tattoos. They don't the citizens. You're like a glorified referee to a citizen. You know, when you watch a ball game, you don't want the referees in the game. They know you're there, but they could care less if you're there until they actually need you. And so I used to be so concerned about. I would say, hey, we need to do a survey in the community to see which uniform color they like or this and that Nobody.
Travis Yates:And when I got away from the profession, I found out that I wasted a lot of energy about what I cared about instead of what the citizens cared about, and we could be spending that energy much more wisely. And so you're so right. You almost have to swallow a little bit of your pride, a little bit of what your preconceived notions are, and to get to what's important. And you said it right when I walk into a restaurant, I don't care what someone looks like or what their facial hair is. I just want to be treated right. And it's really the same way with law enforcement Treat people right. Treat people the way you want to be treated. Treat your officers right. It really is that simple. That's the simplicity of it, but we've sometimes overcomplicated it, haven't we?
Billy Grogan:That is a true statement, for sure.
Travis Yates:So I want to wind this up, chief. I want to get to the nuts and bolts of this, because I think you're doing such good stuff here, because we do have a lot of I do a lot of seminars. I speak to a lot of middle managers that have the, that have the goals to be a chief one day, and, um, what advice would you give them? Let's just take it from the rookie officer to a middle manager, right, I mean, it's probably different advice for each one of them, but sure, what sort of groundwork can they lay? Because you can't just retire and go hey, I want to be a police chief. You've got to lay some groundwork, get some foundation.
Travis Yates:What are some of the things that our listening audience can think about? Now? Listen, I will couch this with this and you may not like this. Chief. I used to say this to people. I said, hey, if you want to be a police chief, that shouldn't necessarily be something you want to do, right? Some of the best chiefs I know fell into the job. They didn't really have an aspiration to do it. But certainly there are good men and women that want to be chiefs that we need to make sure they get there the right way and give them the foundation. So what would be your advice? To anybody listening that's not a chief, you know, and it could be any rank. What's some of the foundation they need to lay out to make that happen?
Billy Grogan:So I think you know, starting at the beginning, you know today you need your degree. So you know, regardless of whether you think it's important for law enforcement, there's a lot of debate about that but you need to get your degree because everybody else that's applying for that chief job has a degree and likely has a master's degree. So you know it would behoove you to do that if you aspire to be a police chief. And then also, when it comes to experience, you need to get experience inside the agency you're working at. Don't just go to uniform patrol and stick there because you like it, or go to traffic and stick there because you like it, or go to investigations, that's great if that's all you want to do, but if you want to have a broad experience, so it makes you a better candidate.
Billy Grogan:When it comes to selection, do you have the opportunity to work on the budget? That is key. Hiring officials, city managers, always look to see does that person have any experience with budget, because that's a big part of the police chief's job. And then you want to have those professional relationships and organizations like IACP or your state association. You know, you know build those relationships with people, with groups like that, and then you know, uh, you know, build those relationships with people, uh, with groups like that. And then you know you.
Billy Grogan:You want to try to attend uh FBI national Academy or SPI or Northwestern or you know one of the various schools that you can, because that's going to give you uh, really it's going to check a box that they're looking for people for police chiefs who have that in their background, and then just that experience networking with people, get to know people. You want to be an avid reader. Leadership books are great. There's a lot of books that you can read that will help you along your leadership journey. But that would be kind of my advice for those in those positions.
Travis Yates:Yeah, it makes perfect sense and it's a process you need to be thinking about and really, even if you don't want to be a chief, doing much of that helps you as well, right, even if that's not your end goal. That's just going to make you better, and I love the idea of different assignments because you see people get in such a comfortable position. They know their job. They don't want to go learn a different job. That's what's unique about most law enforcement agencies is there may be a dozen different jobs inside the job and you get to go learn.
Travis Yates:I was one that enjoyed getting to move around. Of course, as managers that's what you do, but I enjoyed getting to move around because I got to learn new things. But you always everybody here listening knows that officer or sergeant that's been in that position for 20 something years and they're not leaving. Well, they're really one dimensional. That's really going to hurt you once you leave this profession, or with your experience, and so I'll take it. So far I've been a fan of the mandatory in and out whether that's three years, five years, seven years where there's a constant different people moving around, Because what that, in my mind, has done for agencies is it gives them more experience.
Travis Yates:If you're a detective that goes back to patrol, you know the importance of investigations and reports. If your patrol goes to detective because there'd be some that'd be kicking and screaming doing that they don't want a caseload Well, now you know the importance of a patrol writing good reports and you get to cross match that experience and in a number of years you got a highly experienced department. I always get concerned if the guy's been working narcotics for 26 years and the day he leaves, Well, where'd that knowledge go. We just lost all that knowledge. But I like the idea of spreading that knowledge around and we have to sometimes force ourselves to get out of our comfort zone, Do we not? To try to get that experience?
Billy Grogan:Oh, you're definitely right. That's a great point and I think we've seen that at the Dunwoody Police Department and even at Marietta, where we did rotate people out of positions and, man, that experience coming back from detectives helped out tremendously on the shift. And then when people become a detective, they're going. Oh my God, why can these people not write a report and include the phone numbers I need, you know, and so they learn, and so they're able to, you know, really lift each other up.
Travis Yates:Well, it was always funny to me because when we would transfer somebody, you know, I typically remember a guy had been in like public information office for 11 or 12 years and I say I think it's probably time for you to do something else. Kicking and screaming, right, kicking and screaming, and then a month later you go hey, best thing ever happened. I love what I'm doing now because it refreshes them right, and so sometimes you have to almost force them to do that, but I think that does help. Most private organizations understand that as well. You know, tell them to be absolutely set in the same cubicle for 20 years, or moving those folks around, giving them more training. Chief, so fascinating man, and what you're doing is so needed and so unique. Where can people reach out to you at?
Billy Grogan:So my website is topcopleadershipcom and my email address is billyjgrogan at gmailcom. And yeah, reach out anytime.
Travis Yates:Yeah, chief, you're doing coaching, you're doing counseling, you do classes, you do resume building for folks. Anything you need, top Cop can help you out. So I want to recommend our audience to check it out. Even if you've got some questions, reach out to Billy. Billy, I can't thank you enough for being here, sir.
Billy Grogan:Can I mention one other thing? Anything you want. Yeah, I just actually published a book recently, on August 13th. It's Guardians of the Community Uniting Communities Through Sir Robert Peel's Time-Honored Principles, and it's about Sir Robert Peel, the father of modern policing, and all his principles. It's available where books are sold. It's on Amazon. So you know, check his principles. It's available where books are sold. It's on Amazon. So you know, check it out. It's in Kindle and paperback and hardback.
Travis Yates:We'll put a link up and I'll grab a copy. I saw your pill poster and I always think it's unique that what is old is new but that never gets old If we would just quit complicating things. Get back to what Peele said people are the police, police are the people. Work together, amazing things can happen and, billy Chief, you're doing great, amazing things. Thank you again.
Billy Grogan:Thank you, sir, appreciate it, travis.
Travis Yates:And if you've been watching or you've been listening, thank you for your time, Thank you for being here and just remember lead on and stay courageous.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates. We invite you to join other courageous leaders at www. travisyates. org.
