Navigating the Trenches of Leadership with Sergeant John Kelly

Every leader faces their own battleground, and who better to guide us through the trenches of leadership than Sergeant John Kelly, whose scars of experience shine as lessons in resilience. Our heart-to-heart with John is more than just a discussion; it's a journey through the valleys of failure that leads us to the peaks of exemplary leadership. His tales are not just recountings of personal setbacks but serve as beacons for anyone willing to embrace their own moments of defeat. John's candid storytelling paints a vivid image of law enforcement's courageous hearts and the silent battles they often face alone.

In this episode, we delve into the critical need for a revolution in law enforcement culture—one that prizes wellness as much as it does bravery. John's "Sometimes Heroes Need Help" initiative is at the forefront, shining a light on the unspoken struggles within the force. He advocates for an environment where officers not only watch each other's backs in the field but also when it comes to mental and physical health. The conversation opens up about the transformative potential of vulnerability, challenging the age-old norms of stoicism in uniform and redefining what it means to be strong.

This is a tribute to courageous leadership is a clarion call to those ready to lead with conviction and uplift those walking the line beside them. Join us, and let's march forward together, inspired by the wisdom of those like Sergeant John Kelly.

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Transcript

John Kelly: 0:00

The last time I checked. Man, if you care more about your people than you do yourself, that is the foundation of an excellent leader, and I think so. We over, I think we over complicate things.

Intro/Outro: 0:17

Welcome to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates, where leaders find the insights, advice and encouragement they need to lead courageously.

Travis Yates: 0:25

Welcome back to the show. I'm so excited you've decided to spend a few minutes with us here today and I am really excited about this next guest and you are going to love what he has to say. Sergeant John Kelly retired after 30 years with the Broward County Sheriff's Office. His assignments included patrol investigations, canine training and the motorcycle unit, and when you see John you'll know why he was in the motorcycle unit. He's a good looking young man. John is now known as a law enforcement life coach and he continues to serve the law enforcement profession through his nationwide program. Sometimes heroes need help. His book Surviving Self-Inflicted Wounds A Deputy's Life and Redemption is phenomenal and I'm honored he's with us today. John Kelly, how are you doing, sir?

John Kelly: 1:13

Travis brother, listen, man, this is blessed, blessed, blessed to have you in my life, man, and thank you for this opportunity to sit down and chat with your listeners. Man, I appreciate it.

Travis Yates: 1:26

Well, I want the audience to understand this. There's only a few people that you run across in life that just really put a smile on your face. And, man, when I'm around you, I almost feel like my dopamine is increased. I just feel really excited.

Travis Yates: 1:41

We just had a conversation before we went live and you got me pumped up and I'm really excited and you challenged me, john, and I really thank you for that. But I just wanted to ask you like I got a feeling you weren't always like this right Like you have. There's no doubt, man, you have a special gift to encourage people and to coach people but kind of lead us through your journey on how you ended up right here with me talking to me on this show, tons of failures, brother.

John Kelly: 2:08

You know it's just like it took me to the end to figure out how I needed to be, to win and to add value and to be be that person, man, that I always wanted to be. It was, it was always within reach, but you know what is that saying? You know you take one step forward, two steps back. You know there was a lot of that going on throughout my life man, always well intended, but, geez man, some I just couldn't, couldn't really put it all together. And and so, you know, through a lot of failures you know failures I wouldn't let those failures define me. You know, there was just there was.

John Kelly: 2:50

There was a chance to pivot, a chance to reinvent, a chance to get it right, and with the help of a lot, of, a lot of people in my life family, friends, people, travis, people that loved me when I gave them absolutely no reason to do so, man, and so I've never forgot that right, that, that that blessing, and to be grateful for that. And and so that's really brought me to this place now where I'm. Just I can't not share what I've learned. There's, there's a moral obligation for me to do that, man, especially at this stage in my life, and so that's what I'm doing with. Sometimes, heroes need help is I am sharing man, I'm, I'm trying to give you a roadmap, man, a roadmap, and if you're falling a hole, I'm going to jump down in there with you and I'm going to help you get out.

Travis Yates: 3:48

Well, that's such a powerful leadership tip right Like learning from failure. So when we fail, we have a narrative decisions we can make. We can not acknowledge the failure and keep moving forward, or we can blame somebody else, or we can just give up, or we do what you do, john, which is I'm going to learn from this, be better from this and then help others from this. How have you seen this help you throughout your career? I know you probably didn't always learn from failure about what was the trigger where you said you know what. I need to use this to help others.

John Kelly: 4:20

Do you know. So you know when you're in this thing of ours, right, and you've done a considerable amount of time in this profession and you know you look right. I like to be a student of history and I like to. I love to observe and, it's funny, I had leaders in my life teach me some very valuable lessons.

John Kelly: 4:45

Some were excellent leaders that actually, you know, we, we talk about all these different leadership schools and you know SPI and go into the NA, and go into the NA, and you know, and I think what those end up turning into is just a vacation away from home where you get to party a little bit more and hang out with some people.

John Kelly: 5:06

Because the last time I checked, man, if you care more about your people than you do yourself, that is the foundation of an excellent leader, and I think so we over, I think we over complicate things, quite frankly, and you know I had these different leaders in my life and some were, had put themselves in a position to be disciplined and stripped of their rank because of what they did for me. And then I had leaders that you know self-proclaimed, that did quite the exact opposite, that made themselves a priority over my well-being, and so you know. That contrast showed me very clearly where I needed to be to be an effective leader. To you know, leadership is about caring, and I know I probably have oversimplified it, travis, but I don't know that it needs to be more difficult than that.

Travis Yates: 6:07

Yeah, I think if we could just get back to simple, the professional would be much better. We have made things so difficult. We have so many schools we go to and trains we go to and certificates we strive to get, or quadruple trilogy coins we try to shoot for, and that's been going on for years. And I would say this there's a misapplication or non-application or whatever that knowledge is, because why is the profession in the position it's in now if our leadership was solid?

John Kelly: 6:39

Right? Well, I think a lot of that, and you know what I don't. This is what I think we need to be careful in doing. We need to be careful not to create an us versus them, whether that's between the rank and file and command. You know everybody, everybody, the young man, a woman who's it's their first day on the job, to the boss, to the sheriff that's going on their second or third term everybody owns a piece of this problem At least we should. And if we take that approach right, that everybody, everybody, has contributed to the problem. The good news If we have contributed to the problem, we can contribute to the solution.

John Kelly: 7:29

I hate when people start finger pointing man, expecting you know, leadership, right, the new sheriff, the new chief, they're going to fix all the ills of our agency, of our profession, and I think you know it comes down to some personal accountability. What are you doing to be part of the solution? What culture are you creating in your interactions with each other that either promote and foster strong leadership or not? And I think that it's far too easy to sit back and just blame a shitty boss. They end up being the scapegoat, and I think that a lot of times Travis that when we take a team approach to solving problems, I think that's where we succeed.

Travis Yates: 8:22

No, I see a lot of blaming and a lot of finger pointing. I think that's because that's easy to do, right, you don't have to take any accountability when you do that. But you know you were tires of Sergeant John. You were obviously an officer before that. But what about those officers or those lower ranks that may be listening, that may be looking at the captains or majors or chiefs going how come they won't fix it, when in reality they could contribute a lot to fixing it? What advice would you give them?

John Kelly: 8:48

So this is what I am. Anybody who knows me or has been to one of my presentations, they know my superpower. My superpower is that serenity, prayer, right. God, grant me the serenity to accept the things that cannot change and there's a lot of things that can't change. Give me the courage, the strength to change the things that I can, because that's the work, man you changing you. That's the hard work and the wisdom to know the difference.

John Kelly: 9:19

And so I think that when we look at what can I do differently, let's start with you, start with you and your self care and your physical and mental well-being and what you do for you. And then, once you've got to handle on that, you know, then you share, and then you can become part of the solution for the guys on your squad. And I truly believe it's a bottom up solution, travis, that if we just start living our lives differently, with purpose, caring even though we may not like, right Liking and caring two different things, man, we don't have to like each other, but we do need to care, we do need to care for each other and then, once we figure some of those things out, I think it spreads, just like a cancer spreads. You always talk about that negativity spreading. I think that positive, uh, optimism, right, not optimism, but optimism.

John Kelly: 10:19

I think that can spread as well. And when you start getting groups and organizations caring for each other, having each other's no-transcript willing to, you know, we purport to care for each other thin blue line and all that bullshit. We certainly don't act like it from time to time. Travis, I mean, I'm sure Tulsa wasn't too different than Broward. I mean, we eat our own and maybe, so maybe the fix, the shift needs to come from within, and it maybe it starts with caring.

Travis Yates: 10:55

Yeah, I don't know how we'd go wrong with that, and I've said this for years courage is contagious, right it takes one to stand up. Now the problem is, is that one that stands up better get ready for the spears? But sometimes it's worth getting the spears. Sometimes it's worth if you know your purpose, regardless of what people may say, and that's very vital. And in that sense, every officer's a leader, every officer plays a role.

Travis Yates: 11:18

But in this sort of hierarchical system of law enforcement. John, there's some difficulty there, right? You have officers pointing to the sergeants, the sergeants point to the captains, the captains point to the majors and it's just a disaster. And we've seen that play out year after year. And I think what you do is so important because we're almost at a never go back situation, like if we don't get this right pretty soon, it's gonna be very difficult to get it back. And you do a presentation, john. There's really one of the best.

Travis Yates: 11:45

After that, the wellness field in law enforcement is inundated with a lot of people. Some of them have the right intent, some of them don't. There's a lot of you know, if any. You know there's a lot of shady characters, so to speak, in a lot of different areas that are selling certain things to the profession. But what you do is different, man, because it's very personal. You've been through it, you've come through it. You know the solutions. Talk to us about your kind of signature program. I know you're traveling the country on. Sometimes heroes need help. How did that happen and what is it? What are you trying to do when you present that to agencies?

John Kelly: 12:22

Thank you, travis. So I had this epiphany man when I was in training at the Sheriff's office. I would see I would train 30 guys a day, four days a week for four months. That was our training cycle and then we would rotate into a new training cycle. So I got to see the whole agency over the course of four months and so inevitably at the end of the training day, travis, there'd be a few guys hanging out every day without fail. I'd check in with them. All right, boys, what's up? You got a flat. You need me to call a wrecker jumpstart. Why are you still here? And I cut you early so you could go home. They don't wanna go home. They don't wanna go home, brother, they don't wanna go home. Home is not a place they wanna be. Home's difficult.

John Kelly: 13:14

And so the light bulb went off. Man, we started referring people getting guys services, like we were the original peer support man, getting guys hooked up with organizations and therapists and counselors and getting them help. That they didn't need help with cop stuff, travis, they needed help with life. See, nobody's ever told we make assumptions. Oh, he's grown, he'll figure it out. Well, maybe he will, maybe he won't.

John Kelly: 13:43

But why are we standing on the sideline with a box of popcorn waiting for the car to crash. Man Waiting for somebody to crash and burn. Why don't we start proactively addressing the areas that we know are problematic in our lives our relationships at home, our interactions together at work, our finances, our physical and mental health, our emotional health. Why are we waiting? And so that's how this program was born man, personal, professional, financial, physical and mental health. We are gonna proactively address these issues to keep the slide right, the slide that we all face.

John Kelly: 14:27

Man, everyone faces a slide. The key to survival and thriving is to keep that slide from becoming an avalanche man, and we do that by being intentional and mindful in how we live our lives. And so that's really how the program was born. I was tired of seeing guys suffer in silence, man that didn't have to, and we all wear masks and we're all we all portray to be things. Maybe that we're not, because being real with ourselves is one of the hardest things we've ever had to face. And so this program is really. It's about being vulnerable. I talk about my alcoholism, my infidelity, I talk about my addictions, I talk about my failures, in the hopes that you see a little bit of you and me and then maybe do something about it.

Travis Yates: 15:28

Right? No, John, I think it's changing what people used to think about what wellness was. I think it's extremely, extremely powerful. You talk about getting ahead of the problems right Like law enforcement is really good about the discipline process and the procedures you go through and the investigations of people. I mean we house tons of people in internal affairs to do this, but then we'll put no one in a wellness unit right to try to prevent it.

Travis Yates: 15:55

And if we got ahead of this early on and I want to kind of tell our audience, those who may be not in law enforcement, the phenomenon here so you go into law enforcement typically in your early twenties not always, but let's just say early twenties Well, you really aren't even developed as an adult yet at that point. I mean myself, I came right out of college, you know, never really having a full-time job. I had college jobs right Right out of college, 21 years old, turn 21 right before the police academy and I'm thrusting this major law enforcement organization and you almost conform to whatever is being done or said. You conform to the culture.

Travis Yates: 16:31

I attribute a lot of law enforcement to athletes. We're like athletes without the money. For instance, an athlete right out of high school goes right in the NBA and they get all this money and all this fame and they lose their mind. Oftentimes, right, they're not prepared for that. And in law enforcement you see sometimes not all the time, but sometimes you see it very similar. You see guys or gals they get in trouble financially, they get in trouble with relationships, they get in trouble with addiction because they're thrust into this career that everybody's been factuated with and everybody goes to watch movies about and watch reality TV about. You're in it, people are, you identify with it because the Christmas parties are talking to you about it. And you are not just Travis anymore, you're now a police.

Travis Yates: 17:12

You're a police officer and that's where your identity and you go through your entire career like that. And then when the roadblocks come, where adults can navigate the roadblocks because they've been prepared, oftentimes those in law enforcement are not prepared for that, and just as that 21 year old kid could be influenced by a police culture, they can be influenced by what you're saying. That's why it's important that we need to get this information to people early in their career, and would that not be dramatic if we could do that, john?

John Kelly: 17:41

That's, travis. That's the key. That's the key to changing this thing around, this culture. You know, we have a situation that we've created. We've created it. We allow an unacceptable behavior. That's what we do, and we do that on so many fronts, man it's no wonder why we have the problems that we have.

John Kelly: 18:09

And so, if we can be real and hold each other accountable but I can't check you, travis, on your drinking, if I'm drinking with you, if the way we honor we go to the memorial up in DC, how do we pay tribute to those that have paid the ultimate sacrifice? Travis, pour that shot glass out right. We get shitfaced right. That's way to go, man. Congratulations. You're really doing your partner proud there. That's the culture that's problematic on many levels, man, and so if we can introduce real ways of coping, successful ways of coping, strategies that add value to your life, we don't need to be the stereotypical cop going on a second, third, divorce, poor health, in and out of programs, sitting on the corner of their bed holding their gun in their hands. That doesn't have to be the narrative, and we can change that if we just change how we live our lives.

Travis Yates: 19:29

Yeah, and that's powerful. And the truth is we watch Lethal Weapon and Mel Gibson with the gun in his mouth and the alcoholic and divorce cop and we look at that as entertainment. But the truth is that gets accepted in many circles inside the profession as an excuse to do something very, very similar. And I know you've seen it, John, and I've seen it. I've been at the funeral tour the person that wasn't drinking was shamed because they weren't drinking right. I've been in these situations and it's very ironic that some of the best men and women I've ever been around have been in the law enforcement profession. At the same time, some of the worst people I've ever been around have been in the law enforcement profession. So it's really dichotomy and you really have hit the nail on the head.

Travis Yates: 20:12

I cannot recommend what you're doing enough. If you're just listening to this. I'm talking to Sergeant John Kelly and his signature program sometimes heroes need help is really, I think, the key and the answer. But really, you talk about the simplification of leadership, John, earlier. Well, this is really a simplified version of a lot of information that's floating on out there. I don't say simplified is in, it's not, it doesn't matter. I say simplified is when you read what you write and you listen to your podcast, and here you talk, you immediately get it. There's no further explanation. But you have to put the work in, and is that what I know? I love your website. I want people to go to its law enforcement life coachcom. Wish I would have thought of it. It's phenomenal, it's a great website. That's how we first met.

Intro/Outro: 20:56

I saw your website and I called you and I said I just want to meet you, man.

Travis Yates: 21:00

I want to meet you because I'm looking at this website and I love what you're doing because it was so unique and it's it's. It touched me and I've been to a lot of websites but that one was really important to me. But I know the coaching thing is big for you in the business world. I tell people this you know, ceos of multi-billionaire companies have coaches and they're highly successful. But they have coaches for a reason Law enforcement. Oftentimes we don't think we need help, more or less coaches. What's your thoughts on that?

John Kelly: 21:28

Well, that's. That's it in a nutshell, isn't it? Listen, if you're the one that gets called to solve the world's problems and we do let me tell you we show up and, within seconds, are able to resolve issues that have been plaguing families and businesses, and you know, for years. We are experts at identifying problems and then coming up with real, sustainable, workable solutions for the people that call us. That's our profession. We're excellent at that.

John Kelly: 22:02

We won't do that in our own personal lives. We don't have that. We think we don't have that ability. We won't apply the skill sets that we use daily in our own personal lives. We're great communicators at work. We don't say a word when we walk through that door of our home, and so we wonder why there's no transfer over of skills and nobody's ever taught us how I apply the OODA loop right, like at home, like it's you, it's observing, it's orienting yourself, it's making the decision and then acting upon it. Like we do that a million times a day at work.

John Kelly: 22:47

But when we get home, we somehow believe that the skill sets that we've acquired at work don't translate at home, and so we don't communicate, we don't discuss, and then we wonder why, like when we stop doing the things that make us successful. We wonder why we have problems and things get sideways, and so it's difficult for people in this profession to come to grips with the fact that they can be so good at solving everyone else's problems and complete failures at solving their own, and sometimes they just need a kick in the ass. You know, somebody needs to shake them to go hey, hey, smarten up and do this right, walk with me. Much of what I do, travis, I'm just a big brother man.

John Kelly: 23:38

You know, I'm a big brother that you can turn to and go hey, john, what do you think about this? Well, you know what man? You can touch that stove. I'm gonna tell you it's hot man. But you can touch it to find out for yourself, or you can take my word for it, and we can make this decision, which I think might be a better decision. And that's what it is, brother. It's just really, in the simplest of terms, man just trying to look out for our brothers and sisters so they don't need to keep repeating the same predictable mistakes.

Travis Yates: 24:14

Yeah, and so often we talked about how we ignore issues until it becomes a discipline issue and there's always signs before that. We all know that and it's ignored. But it's the same way with the coaching. Like there's plenty of help if you're an alcoholic or you need marriage counseling or you created some sort of problem at work and you need to go to EAP, but we shy away from that help before the problem exists.

Travis Yates: 24:42

And that's what I love about your life coaching program is, is I call you up every once in a while because I just need a kick in the tail, or I need somebody to kind of talk common sense into me and it just kind of helps me along with my day or my week, because it helps me to not get down into that deep, dark place that all of us have been to, because it prevents that. So I can't recommend that enough. And if you don't want to call John, then find an accountability friend, find a friend in accountability partner. Talk to your wife, but you have to communicate what's going on inside you or it's going to manifest in a negative way, is it not?

John Kelly: 25:16

That's what ends up happening. Travis, there are many lessons that I've learned during this journey. Man and I never argued with Nicole. I never had an argument with her, not one. You can't have an argument, brother, if you don't have a conversation, right? Yeah, you know. So, oh shit, our relationship's great, we don't argue. We don't argue because we don't talk. That's not a healthy relationship, right? So that creates its own litany of problems.

John Kelly: 25:50

And you know, realizing the things ahead of time that are going to keep you healthy and well, and you taking care of you so you can be an awesome spouse and parent and coworker, those are things that nobody ever taught me, man. Nobody ever taught you. We just figured we would pick it up as we went along. And I think it's fair to say that those aren't skill sets that are just. We just naturally develop, like anything developing leadership skills, developing self-care skills, developing communication skills, developing caring skills, self-care skills. That's not something that you're automatically supposed to know, and so you know. That's why I think it's so important for us to again circle in all the way back, man, get getting back to a time of caring for each other. I think that's a very, I think that's a cornerstone of us getting our profession back on track.

Travis Yates: 26:57

Yeah, and we sometimes mistake caring for. Well, I don't want to be negative, I don't want to be critical, I don't want to kick him in the tail, right. And I think back and I think, when you get our age, John, we're similar ages, although you look much better than I do.

John Kelly: 27:09

I listen, we're both very weathered, my friend.

Travis Yates: 27:11

Yeah, of course.

John Kelly: 27:13

Yeah, we're in the same ballpark.

Travis Yates: 27:15

And I look back and I think to myself if I would have had a John Kelly, if I would have had a leader that cared, that caring, if I would have had somebody that would have early on said hey, travis, let's talk about finances, let's talk about investments. Hey, travis, let's talk about marriage and family and kids. Why are you working those extra jobs? How come you're not? You know, nobody offered any of that to me and of course I looked.

Travis Yates: 27:40

I learned it eventually way too late in life. Right, I mean, we all. Hopefully we learn it or we fail miserably. But how vital would that be to that kid in the academy? Or actually, let me just take a step further, because in the academy you're in a day with so much information. How about be on the streets for a year and you pull them back in after one year and then we give this to them where they've actually experienced some of this already and observed it, and we get before them and start discussing. You know, my kids are now my older kids are 20 and 23, and I'm just in their ear about finances and investments and all these things that I screwed up. I'm in their ear about every day and I didn't have that.

Travis Yates: 28:14

you know, and I was around a lot of good people, good leaders, a lot of people in the profession. That could have been that. I don't think it was on their minds, but today there are people out there in leadership positions with young kids working for them. I say young kids, but that's who they are that need this, and so they don't need to call John Kelly those leaders. That's part of leadership, is it not? Oh my God that's your role.

John Kelly: 28:40

You know we should have a mentorship program. Everybody, everybody should be picking up and filling that role. Man, um, you know, there's we. Unfortunately, we passed on I think we got some blood on our hands, travis and you just hear me out with this, with the understanding that you don't know what you don't know.

John Kelly: 29:09

Things get passed on generation to generation in this profession, and so when I experience a critical incident and the debrief goes like this hey, anybody got anything. All right, go ahead and get back out there and you're scraping burnt flesh from your hands because the bodies you were picking up, their skin, came off in your hands. And then I just go wash that shit off and get back out there. We're holding calls and then we don't ever talk about it again Like, well, that's just the way it was Right. Well, we know now that that's not a real successful recipe for helping somebody deal with cumulative trauma and stress. So we, back in the day that was, there was no discussion of how things impacted you or what your feelings were on the situation. It was literally come on, let's go, suck it up, we're not leaving, we're not leaving day shift for all these calls. We got to get back out there and start handling stuff, and so we passed that on to people that were junior to us, and then they passed that philosophy on. This is my penance, man. This is my penance. This is my attempt to change and right those wrongs, that we know that there's a better way, this is a more effective way.

John Kelly: 30:42

Being involved in your life is not a bad thing for a super. I knew, at the end, travis. I knew my guys, I knew their families. I knew who had T-ball, who would have appreciated getting cut loose early that night. I know who was struggling at home and, you know, maybe needed an extra few minutes before or after, or maybe just wanted to go sit down and have some coffee man to work through a problem that they were having. Who's dealing with a parent who's got dementia or Alzheimer's, and how was that? Us knowing our people on a personal level, I think we got away from that for a bit and I think that that is the key really for leadership to truly care and know. Know what's going on in your people's lives and know how you can be a part of their solution Maybe a solution that they don't even know exists.

Travis Yates: 31:43

Yeah, there's. I think a lot of our leaders are in self survival mode. You know there's a lot of external factors. They're worried, they're concerned, where's the next protest going to be, where's the next rag going to be? What's the mayor going to say? And they're so distracted with that they've lost that core leadership principle that you've been discussing throughout this episode, john, which is caring Right, and I cannot emphasize enough to our audience how important it is to get to know who you are and what you're doing. You've got to grab his books Surviving Self-Inflected Wounds. It radically changed me on a lot of different issues, particularly the financial issue. I can't thank you enough. But you're not just embedded with that, john. I mean you're recently involved with the Thin Blue Connect and kind of talk to us about what that is and how that looks to impact a profession.

John Kelly: 32:31

So Director of Operations, richard Odom, had this concept, this idea to get people right, I think, with a foundation of caring, that are in this space, that are in it for the right reasons, trying to change people, make situations better for them. It's an organization that looks to promote the first responder, the police profession, and the concept really is about getting people like-minded together to not only add value to each other in a fraternal sense, right to be there for each other, but then to serve as kind of like a platform for those looking to have subject matter experts like yourself, like Tom Rizzo, like Andy Hughes if I could be so bold as to include myself in that group people who are out in this space caring and making a difference. And it's an organization that's just started and we're looking to change the culture and bring this thing back to a time of caring with a level of competency that is vetted and that is truly making a difference. And so I'm excited to be a part of that, and I think it's just a great opportunity for people in this space to do something about it, instead of sitting back and pointing a finger and maybe bitching about something. It's an opportunity to get involved and to actually be part of a culture change, and so that's ThinBlueConnectcom, that's the website, and it's going to be doing some amazing things in the not too distant future.

Travis Yates: 34:32

Well, just the people involved, John yourself, and Andy Hughes has been here on a podcast before and you can check that out at Yatesleadershipcom. We can see all these podcasts it's. I agree. I think we're at this crossroads in the profession where we needed leaders to stand up to steer the ship in the right way, and you're a part of that. Thinblueconnect is a part of that. I'm honored to know you, john. I'm honored and just excited about what the future holds. I can't thank you enough for what you're doing for the profession and thank you so much for being here.

John Kelly: 35:03

The pleasure has been all mine and the honor is mine, travis, thank you, sir, and if you've been listening, thank you for doing that.

Travis Yates: 35:09

We honor you, we welcome you and just remember, lead on and stay courageous.

Intro/Outro: 35:16

Thank you for listening to Courageous Leadership with Travis Yates. We invite you to join other courageous leaders at www. travisyates. org.